Can you instill work ethic? Prevent some of the issues with teenagers/work going forward?

[Cortina]

I've read the thread about motivating teenagers with interest.

I can only give anecdotal examples but I've made a few observations over the years about the parents that have incredibly committed children who studied hard and those that don't. Broadly if good habits are instilled when the children are young I believe you are less likely to have a problem later on. Writing it down this seems blindingly obvious to me at least.

If you push too hard and have unrealistic expectations your children will probably rebel however if you've insisted on high standards, homework completed well before deadline etc when the children are very young the chances are they will have good study habits later in life.

Those I know with teenage boys in particular were very laid back about homework, deadlines etc. They gave no real support early on and made no demands. The boys were allowed to play computer games and outside with their friends, study outside of school not a priority.

When the boys turned 11 or 12 the parents tried to get them to work and the boys refused. Many very able boys got Cs or Ds in GCSEs when they were capable of far more. The parents shrugged and said 'what could we do? we tried everything'. It breaks my heart to think of a few young lads I know in dead end jobs when they had the ability to do far, far more. They may go on to do well in time of course.

I came from a 'fly by the seat of your pants' family. Library books were always lost, packed lunches made at the last minute with stale bread and yoghurt past its sell by date etc. Buses would be missed, I would arrive at school aged 6 in odd socks, you get the picture. No help on school projects etc. It meant I have stressed and felt that I was likely to fail somehow.

I am trying to instill calm in my family. To tell my son the rules are he does homework, spellings or project work immediately it's set. Library books have a special place, packed lunch is prepared in advance etc. So far so good. I am sure that I could have a rude awakening down the line but at least I am trying and I think these things DO make a difference.

When I look at those who have children who are self starters and have achieved high grades at GCSE etc even if not hugely 'bright' the parents have without exception had a great work ethic. They've modeled that work and life can be tough but setbacks can be overcome with a positive mindset. From the age that the first set work comes home there are no excuses, work assignments/homework/projects HAVE to be done and begun practically as soon as they are set.

There's usually been a love of learning promoted & encouraged from early on too. It also has to be said that great deal of time was invested in the children from an early age.

Something else I've observed in friends with 2 or 3 children, again just my own experience and not sure if it applies my broadly? With the first child the books were out on the table every Sunday, sometimes all day Sunday. The Mum was on the phone to her friend as they discussed science homework in depth. I was called at work to discuss grammar rules. The Mums seemed to assign 'mentors' in every subject for their DCs from when they were about 8 years old.

DC would end up at a grammar or highly selective school where there was a high % of A*s. Peer group hard working and driven etc.

With DC2 it was a different story. Mum was usually burnt out by then and found that she couldn't invest as heavily in their education. That child usually wasn't as 'academic' it turned out in the long run?

Sorry writing in a rush, that should be 'applies MORE broadly' and 'it meant I felt stressed' :)

I don't have teenagers yet, but based on my own experience of other people and my own family, I would fully agree with you. I know I will probably change my mind several times though!

With regards to the 1+ children issue, I feel I can comment as I have 4! I would say that it is true that with the first I was very enthusastic, and put massive amount of effort (still do!).

However, with all of them, I will not accept late/shabby homework, poor excuses, bad behaviour, late school arrivals, and they all look clean and tidy every day. I am pretty keen on education so I can't imagine not caring/not being bothered about a child failing academically - it would be a serious issue for me.

I think I do a pretty good job with that, even if it means I am a less laid back parent than I would like to be. In that sense, life has changed for all of them as I don't have slack to accommodate too many personal preferences - but we do what we can.

I don't feel any of them is majorly missing out on parental interest and care or falling through the net yet, but I guess the jury is out as we have many many years ahead!!!

Ime an awful lot is down not to the individual parent, but to the individual child. Otherwise it would be hard to explain why one child from the same family, and treated the same way re homework etc, develops a totally different attitude towards academic work.

To me as a child, academic work was one long self-affirmation: every time I put more work in it, there was an immediate result and I could see how I literally did much better than my peers. As for my my less gifted elder brother, what he learned was was that he could work twice as hard and still not do as well as his more gifted peers (our younger siblings, for that matter). So naturally, I have spent more time perfecting my academic learning. I'd hardly call that a work ethic though. A work ethic would me if I had spent my leisure hours trying to improve myself in something that came less easily to me, say DIY or motor mechanics. But I never did. Because if you happen to be good at academics, nobody is going to ask anything else of you. They never have. I've just taken the easy path in life and people think I have a work ethic.

I have one child who pushes herself harder and harder in studying simply because it gives her pleasure. I am sure the school see it as a tribute to my encouragement. Be interesting to see what they make of her younger brother...

Interesting. Like cory I think it's more down to the individual child. I have 3 teens. The first, the least bright (sorry son) is the one with the best work ethic; works full-time, up at 5.30am, doing an OU degree and volunteering too, a real self-starter. Both the others are pretty good at getting stuff done ahead of time, especially ds2 who has a touch of OCD in that repect if truth be told, but frankly is otherwise a lazy so and so, only does just enough to get by.

Maybe there is something in the parental burn-out bit but I'm not sure because unless there's a pretty big gap between siblings you are setting rules, promoting and encouraging them all not just the elder one.

Interesting comments Cortina.

I am trying to instill work ethic as you describe but defiance and battles from uninterested children is really hard.

I know the school has failings, it doesnt teach basic stuff that it should, so I try and fill these gaps at home.

maths if fine because they are interested, but anything to do with literacy is a constant battle. Me pushing.

homework deadlines are ignored, and I become that horrendous nagging PIta because I expect the homework to be done. (to be honest its a rare occasion when kids get some so I feel it has to be done). Me pushing

getting to school on time is so important and I will never allow them to be late. Me pushing.

Teachers say kids are extremely clever but lazy. They have said this for the last four+ years. So why are they still lazy. I cant do any more. The school havent helped change this. The school hasnt encouraged them to try harder, given reasons why homework assignments should be completed, why it is important to finish work in school etc. What should I do?

I am really concerned that too much expectation is going to make them not interested in later years.

Pushing is the wrong word but over concerned anxious mum wanting to do the right thing?

I hear of other parents that get their kids to do half an hour of something every night. If only!

Cory, I agree. It's natural to want to spend time on things we have an aptitude for. I switched off in academic subjects where my understanding was foggy & I thought that effort was pointless as it wouldn't yield me results.

This said I didn't believe I could get better, negative thinking and a fixed mindset didn't help. Inspirational, high quality teaching might have helped in this scenario.

Intothfnittygritty - I face the same sort of battles sometimes. Many parents give up after a while I think. It takes huge amounts of energy, many are simply too exhausted after the heavy demands if the day most of the time.

Sometimes a creative or radically different approach is needed, a fun, animated computer game session to reinforce KS1 maths concepts for example. Practical maths where you laugh lots, maybe use music etc. It's doing something regularly, even if only for 10 mins, that can give long term benefits.

I have friends who don't read regularly with their KS1, they spend an hour every other weekend or so doing so when they have more time. I have a feeling a short burst more regularly would pay dividends.

I have clever friends with high achieving children. Many say that the children have achieved so much because they are genetically blessed with a high IQ. This is only part of it IMO. The whole 'Tiger Mother' thing - leaving the 'methods' out of it - many have said Amy's girls did so well as both have IQs of 150. Perhaps but having read the book it's certainly not the only factor.

Organisational skills can be learned though. I'd forget my own head if it wasn't screwed on and it doesn't come naturally, I have developed strategies to cope over time.

I grew up in a chaotic family, tidy on the surface but open a cupboard and it was clear there was no 'system' in place. DH's family are structured and ordered they don't even recognise this themselves and assume all are calm, planned and ordered.

Agree that one child can be 'messier' than another by nature but different families will have different ways of 'helping' the 'messy' child along etc some strategies will perhaps 'cure' them in time.

Sometimes I think we give ourselves an excuse/cop out by assuming a child either has self discipline and work ethic or they don't. We have far more influence than we might realise, especially when they are young.

I agree but I don't see why all can't see improvements in time unless there are very serious impairments. Even then the approach should be positive.

I was described as immature when it came to looking after my own possessions and for years believed I was permanently flawed in this area, I lacked the 'gene' for organisation etc.

Sometimes I believe it's not that parenting is poor, my parents did a pretty good job, it's what habits you assimilate through your environment.

I think it's personality to a large extent too, but there are 'birth order' personality traits too which are maybe affected by how parents treat very young dc. So eldest dc are more likely to be compliant and achieving sorts and youngest ones are more likely to be disorganised rule-questioning types.

I think these characteristics are set way before the age when you would be sitting at tables with books with any of them - but do mean that an older dc is more likely to want to sit at a table with books iyswim.

Thinking more about this, I reckon it's also something about how sensitive you are as an individual. Genetic make-up or whatever.

My parents were certainly inspirational teachers, who taught us more through a sense of their own excitement at the world than because they needed us to succeed for the sake of success iyswim. But I always noticed with my elder brother that he is somebody who gives up at the first hurdle. He feels sorry for himself. I don't think that's something his parents taught him- it is not a noticeable characteristic in the other children they brought up: I think it's something in the way he was made. He will always concentrate on his own feelings rather than on "how can I improve this?".

My dd otoh, who has had a far more difficult life than him, will totally collapse for a brief time and then get up and try again.

and snorkie, in my family it is the middle and younger children who are the achievers. If not always necessarily compliant...

and it's perfectly possible to be disorganised and an academic high achiever: imo academic work is more forgiving than almost any other type of work in that respect

I am sorry to disappoint but I came from one of the laidback families although my parents both worked hard in their jobs and my two sisters and I became self-starters. All got A levels and degrees. I am using a balance with mine simply because those of my friends who were pushed achieved lower results because they felt they could never meet parents expectations or would rebel. My parents encouraged us to play outside. Agree the first did better at school by myself and younger sister achieved better at work. More open, big picture people which is more common with younger ones. Eldest supposed to be more conscientious. My parents carried on learning though going to night school and I do think if children see their parents continue learning that helps more than pushing. Lead by example is my opinion.

cory - birth order characteristics not set in stone - just more likely to fall that way, but other factors affect personality too. And yes totally agree disorganised people can achieve, but it's harder for them and they are less likely to imo.

I think other countries/cultures take education far more seriously than we do. Some I know, not in UK, ban all non homework based computer and internet use from Mon to Thurs. TV is also limited in the week, term time. Mum will try to get home early and take time off in exam season etc. Parents make it a key priority to do all they can to make school study high on the agenda, inviting peers for study nights & organising the food etc. Parents value education so highly it is a key priority in their lives.

The UK has dropped in the league tables in terms of school academic performance compared to other countries & rest of the world. I think this may not be do much as the UK failing as other countries improving.

Interesting... I had a very good work ethic in primary school which was probably courtesy of an excellent nanny who was highly organised and ensured homework was done before my parents were home. This fell away gradually as a teen and I've never got it back. I still got/get good results but now I feel I need the stress to build up to achieve them. So I don't think 'just' instilling it early is enough, I think a continued investment is definitely necessary to reinforce it.

Even as an adult I know hard work and persistence will pay dividends and my flashes of brilliance under pressure aren't reliable but my personality still leads my down the path of leaving it to the last minute.

Well, Finland is actually leading the education league tables atm, and from what I know of Finnish culture, I'd be very surprised if they were as exam focused as you describe, Cortina.

I grew up in Sweden when it was at the top of the education league tables, and there was none of this obsession with Success and Results: it simply isn't that kind of competitive culture (don't think Finland is either). My family, and everybody around me, valued education as a good in itself, because it made you a better person, more able to understand the world around you, because an educated work force made for a better, more aware society. It was just taken for granted that this was an important goal in itself.

This is another way of taking education seriously that seems very different from the exams-driven ethos of this country. My mum hardly bothered to look at my school reports- but she told me I had to study German at home if I wouldn't do it at school because German literature has been so important in the history of Western culture. The fact that this would be an unrecognised, unrewarded skill didn't bother her at all. You could hardly say that she didn't value education. She just valued it in a very different way. It led to good marks, at least in my case- but that was not the be all and the end all of the exercise.

Meh, I don't remember my parents having any involvement in my homework EVER. I have a very strong work ethic. I am 3rd born, and my 2 older brothers have famous lazy streaks.

I try to be hands off about homework. DD (a second child, btw) does hers religiously, DSs only do hw if they are enthused.

Seems like personal character coming thru, although I will say that my mother was very hard working and I may have emulated that (as DD may be emulating me). Meanwhile DSs are like their dad -- they do it if they're truly interested, otherwise they have little self-discipline for tasks they find tedious.

Hi Cory, I see where you are coming from & I agree. Your Mum sounds interesting & inspiring. I spoke before about an article I'd read on Denmark or Finland I think and might have discussed with you before? It stressed that children often had greaterresponsibility for the running of the home - often knew how to rewire a home, put a car engine together etc and there were huge educational benefits in this. This coupled with going to bed earlier?/different school hours made for better results going forward.

Friends I mentioned don't stand around pushing the academics by the way, they take time out to be a supportive, benign presence in the background to act as support. They get tutors in to plug gaps rather than act as an ongoing crutch, the idea being children become empowered and take responsibility for their own learning. This said this approach is stressing the importance of exam success etc as you say.

I like the idea of a family that models learning for the sake of pure pleasurecand personal interest. You think this would be more likely to instill a work ethic in a child?

I am surprised by the amount that appear not to have done much to support their child's learning up to about age 13 that then go in all guns blazing and say 'you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.'

i agree with you OP.

for the last two or so years i have been the 'fly by the seat of your pants' parent that you describe and i feel so guilty about it because although day to day my children are happy and healthy, long term i am not teaching them the life time habits that i feel will make them better placed to cope when life gets a bit tougher. thankfully i seem to have found my way out of my depression and am slowly getting myself back to normal.

Hello, I have known to radio presenter females
both were work ethic supporters; and even bragged mildly about it.

Coincidentally, both were the daughters of professional sportsmen.

So, I thought it was part genes and part pushy dad with them

Some teachers are inspirational without being
pushy. Its a gift.

Interesting Gabby. A girl I was at school with always had the star part in every play, that sort of trajectory, you get the picture...Her daughters are doing exactly the same thing and following the same pat and currently eclipsing her success actually. Are they genetically actresses and high achievers? Or is it something else at play?

I think home environment and what you subconsciously assimilate is a key influencer of future success. To give an example, DH had a highly organised family as I said earlier. During a freezing winter his Dad would start the car earlier and it would be thawing out and warming up while the family finished breakfast (de-icer and road maps all neatly stowed in their usual place - all the satchels/book bags would have been packed the night before and the atmosphere light and sunny. Off they'd go, hair slick and shining, on time full off beans, sunshine and positivity.

Our car would still be iced up 5 minutes after school had officially started. A few major rows would have broken out, books would be missing, shoes in the wrong place. De-icer? What's that, oh yes there's on old can without the cap on somewhere in the back of the garage in a stiff drawer. Children and Mum would be surly and rather fearful about the day. Hair would be scruffy, you get the picture...

DH's teacher smiles there's reliable DH he's going to do rather well come 11 thinks the teacher, lovely family that one. Oh look there's Cortina, thinks her teacher, late yet again! I must have a word, must be her fault, she must dawdle, God she looks ill, exhuasted and scruffy! Not terribly bright either, gosh mustn't think like that.

Going off the point but DH's parents were setting their children up for success and they would argue they did nothing out of the ordinary and all parents would have that morning routine, well wouldn't they?

Sorry that should read, 'following the same path' in the first paragraph above :)

I agree Cortina.
dh confesses he was dreadful at school with organisation, motivation, homework deadlines etc. He's more intelligent than me, but massively underachieved at school, because he didn't put in the effort.

I was determined the boys would be like me, not like him and developed sound homework routines from the word go.

We also - as a family - always praise and reward effort above all, rather than focusing on end-products or achievement. And their school also have this approach.

The boys are 11 and 13 now and both extremely hard workers and very diligent with their homework. Often they want to spend more time on it than we want them to!