Big problem at school, please advise

[nutcackle]

Right this will be long so get comfy.

About 2 weeks ago now maybe less, Dd1's friend who i'll call Molly, came out of school saying that during her maths lesson with Mrs X she had got several questions wrong and the teacher had called her stupid, resulting in her classmates calling her stupid at break time.

About 2 minutes later Dd1 came out and overheard what was going on and said that Mrs X had also called one table pathetic and the whole class silly and stupid.
Dd1 wasn't too bothered by this so I decided to leave mentioning it until parents meeting which was yesterday.

In the time between the incident and parents meeting I vaguly questioned Dd1 as to what exactly was said and her story never ever changed so I told her I would speak to her teacher about it (maths teacher is different person). Dd1 was quite happy with this which is why I believe her. In the past if Dd1 has been telling lies, the thought of me telling the teacher has been enough to bring out the truth.

Anyway at parents meeting yesterday I did say to the teacher that I was concerned about the maths teacher but I let Dd1 explain what had happened and again her story was the same.
The teacher said that another parent had also complained (Mollys'mom) and that she could only apologise and say that she would investaiget it further.

This morning Dd1 walked up to her class with Molly and her mom as I was wrestling dd2 into her classroom. Mrs X came over and asked if she could speak with Mollys mom and me. Mollys mom went in and explained where I was. Mrs X was insistent that Molly be in the room and then basically proceeded to question Molly as to exactly what she was accusing her of saying she would never say such things as she had been bullied as a child and so knows what it's like.
She also said she had been crying about it all night and that she could be sacked and then started to cry again.
I am horrified that she seems to think that sort of behaviour infront of a child is appropriate or proffesional.
Molly apparently wouldn't say a word (can't say i blame her) and the teacher just kept going on about she could be sacked or perhaps she should retire.

I think the way Mrs X has handled the situation is awful and almost like she was trying to guilt Molly into admitting she made it up.

I'm not sure if she will want to speak to me when i colect Dd1 but tbh if she does I am not sure what I should say to her.

Who am I supposed to believe ??

I'll be honest with youI'm quite a hard nut teacher, and work in secondary school. I would be totaly gutted if I thought that a child was saying untruths about me. (I'm not saying this to make you feel worse N, just to explain why the woman over reacyed in this way)

When you work with kids you are in a position of great trust....with luck you make a good realtionship with the kids you teach. If one of them then said something very wrong about you (that could get you suspended from your job) it would be very hard to deal with.

Granted she should have been professional and maintained her distance, but I can see how this would seriously upset someone. Things like this have a habit of going round schools and rumours can be very difficult to throw off.

I feel for you and you dd, but I also feel for the teacher, who I don't think should be seen as the only 'Issue' here.

But I'll also repeat what I said at the start, she isn't the first child, and will not be the last, to do this sort of thing, I'm sure you will have a good resolution to this and wish you all the best.

Oh i completely agree and have stressed this to Dd.

Nutcackle asked for clarification on "issues" so can anyone give it to her if it's not the teacher.

But I don't think it is helpful to blame the teacher for being lied about.

I certainly don't blame the teacher at all.

No but I may have misread pinomums post, I thought that she meant that the issue was that the teacher was 'weak' and this is down to her.

Hmm right well not sure I would agree with that either.

I think she was probably just caught off guard and understandably panicked.

Nutty, the teacher may have spoken to the Head about it now - I'm not sure about all schools, but in ones I have worked in, teachers would have to tell the Head about incidents like this.

I think that you are right. She was probably worried sick at the possible outcome, and as you say, paniced. Agreed she should have stayed calm, but that is easier said than done.

You only have to read the responses on this thread to see how angry and upset people can get whan an alegation is made about a member of staff. She was probably sick with worry that this is how she would be seen

We would write an incident form about this sort of thing ASAP Puff

Yes I think the head may well know by tommorow and have warned Dd that if she does then she will have to explain herself to her also and take the consequences.

Whatever punishment they decide on will be fine with me.

Nutty, I think if your dd has to see the Head about it, that may be a good thing and help her realise why what she and her friend did is wrong and must not be repeated. If the head is worth their salt they will dealt with the issue firmly but sensitively - they are only 8 years old after all.

Yes I agree that a trip to the head would probably help Dd to realise the enormity of the situation.

When I was in a similar situation with my dd we went to the head, and the prospect of going absolutely terrified her. The head was actually very, very nice and sympathetic about it, and made her feel that there was a way back and that she wasn't 'written off' forever because of one incident of dishonesty.

It hasn't happened again, and she's never forgotten it.

Haven't experienced anything like this yet, but my initial reaction was to set up something along the lines of what martianbishop suggested. If you think your dd doesn't really get how badly she has upset MrsX, I would be tempted to stage a conversation at home where I told dh a blatant lie about dd having done something naughty. I would want dd to understand what it feels like to be unjustly accused and then have her protestations of innocence coolly ignored. Then I'd stop the set up and suggest that dd might remember how that felt next time she thinks of joining in a lie like that.

Is that really horrible? It's the sort of role playing that a drama lesson might involve and could be very effective.

I can imagine how easy it is to get caught up in a lie that you can't get out of, so I'm not judging your dd just trying to think of the way I might deal with it if mine did it.

Hope it gets resolved with a positive outcome for all Nutty - must be stressful for you.

Kids are kids and I am sure this was not in the slightest bit malicious. The teacher didn't handle it at all well, but if that happened to any of my colleagues we would be absolutely devastated. Primary schools are small, much more intimate places and you know how parents talk and make assumptions. Every teacher is very aware how seriously any allegations made will be taken as MB points out. I hope that you will make sure that anybody other than Molly's mum who knew has the full picture. Am very [blush ]for your ds but also v for the teacher.

If you are still accepting suggestions about how to make her see why lying is so bad, I would vote for Martian Bishop's suggestion. The truth is that your DD's lies have already have consequences: her teacher was upset, but the worst consequence is that her lies will dent the credibility of the teacher somewhere in the future, ie if another child lies about the same (and note I'm saying lies), someone is going to take your DD's and Molly's lies as an antecedent.

I believe that Martian Bishop's suggestion is a good one for a child of her age. It doesn't seem harsh to me, after all her future is not going to be affected for not being to the place you said and surely she will remember why she shouldn't lie better than a week without the Simpsons. And, although I understand you feel bad about inflicting such "pain" in your DD, but it may help you to sort the problem before it gets worse.

Some years ago, I was going out of my house when a 5 yrs old asked me if I could spell in English and I, fooled by his cuteness said "not as well as you do", so he said "Oh, so you don't understand..." and then he yelled at me "CHINESE MOTHER FUCKER!" I just turned round and headed to the kid's house, when the father heard what his DS has said, asked me in to tell the mum about it as the mum wouldn't believe it comming from him. They grounded him for a week (sad for the kid as it was summer and most afternoons all the kids were playing outside), they made him spent his pocket money for the week in flowers and a card and sent him to appologise (on his own) to my house. I thought that the punishment was far too harsh but now, seeing it in perspective, I believe they have done their son a favour. I'm sure that punishment had far more effect than years of half hearted attemps to correct a bad behaviour.

Nutcackle.. just want to post a couple of incidences that might make you feel a little better.. you are not alone.

My DS1 (now 13, then 11) caused a lot of trouble once. Where we used to live we had had a few little issues with the neighbours who were a childless middle aged couple, a bit on the stroppy side about balls over the fence etc. They had used to speak to us normnally but eventually had started complaining about every little things.. some of them ridiculous! One day I was pulling away from outside our house in the car when DS suddenly exclaimed 'She just stuck two fingers up at me as we drove off!!' I said 'no surely not!' but DS was insistent and was behaving with such outrage that I didn't really doubt him.. so I did copped the hump, did a U turn, pulled up back outside their house and said 'really if you have a problem, let's just sort it out.. DON'T use obscene hand gestures to my children PLEASE!' which of course kicked off a bit of an arguement (with her denying she had done any such thing! And her husband getting involved and various neighbours watching with interest) and ending with me driving off in a strop.

THEN the next day DS brings in DD's Tellytubby ball which had been missing for several days and said it had just come flying over the back fence.. and it was sliced almost in half and cut in several other places! So DH then cops the hump (and HE usually stays out of such things!) and goes marching round there spouting on about people who take their issues out on 4 year children's toys!!

So relations were very bad as you can imagine. That night I decided to write a note to 'her nextdoor' and put it through the letter box explaining how I realised that we were probably not the quietest neighbours (3 kids) to live next door to but that we really had no wish to be 'at war' with them and could we call a truce etc.
She wrote back that she was deeply upset by all that had gone and couldn't accept a truce when she had been accused of doing things she really hadn't done!

So I called DS in and had one last heart to heart with him.. but didn't expect him to admit that he had made it up! She had NOT given him a two finger salute and had NOT cut up the ball... he had done it!!

NEVER had I been so ashamed! DH and I got the other 2 to bed and then marched DS round there to apologise. Which he did in a somewhat grizzly but genuine manner.. and she very nicely accepted it.

When we moved away a few months later they were lovely, she even hugged me with tears in her eyes saying she would miss us!

Then yesterday (sorry about this epic.. am aiming to help here, lol!).. I went to pick DD (now age 6) up from school and had to take some paperwork to the office before I went to her classroom. To my surprise she was in the Head's office crying and accompanied by the other Y2 teacher (not her own). The Head sent DD back off with the teacher and called me in.. and explained that DD had decided at afternoon play that her teacher Miss R had 'shoved her in the back' and gone round telling all the children in the playground! Turns out she had been pushed and had turned around and seen Miss R standing nearest her although talking to another staff member and not even looking at DD!

Very weird because I am SURE Miss R would not do this.. she is lovely and affectionate with the kids.. and DD actually LOVES her.. is always hugging her.. and had bonded very quickly with her since the beginning of term. Apparently Miss R had been 'quite upset' about what DD was saying.. and had told the other teacher who had taken DD along to the Head for a chat about not accusing people of things that you were not sure they had done. DD was devastated more by the 'being in the Head's office' situation than anything else I think - because she is not the kind of child who ever gets sent to the Head! But I think she understands now the importance of avoiding false accusation. She got home and straight away went to her room and spent 45 mins working on a picure of her and Miss R holding hands which she gave to her this morning.

Both DD and DS1 (although can be little horrors at home) and not the kind of children who make waves at school.. nor is DS1 the kind to lie about adults - usually! So just wanted to make you feel a bit better.. and also to show that teachers DO seem to get a bit stressed out about being accused by the kids of something they haven't done - probably because of the whistleblowing policies of today which are obviously there to protect children as they should be.. but don't do much to protect staff from naughty little fibs and throwaway remarks that all kids make sometimes.

CJ x

not related to the original post but just in response to last post. We live on a cul de sac and there are lots of kids of around the same age that play together outside. They are all aged around 9-13 years old I think. They are not bad kids but it does annoy the hell out of me when they throw balls in the front garden jump over the hedges, use the drive as aplace for hide and seek. No it's not the end of the world but it is annoying, they're not my kids and I don't want them running all over my garden. I just think "why dont' you go and play outside your own house". So I can understand neighbours getting peed off about this particular issue.

(Great post CJ, but now get back to writing smut! I'm following it closely you know.)

(3Ps.. Ha! I notice YOU have abandoned the Smut Thread! It has deteriorated somewhat, lol.. although is all the more hysterical for it! )

I think we should do a Fantasy Soap thread..

nutcackle - just a trying to work out why she lied - do you think there maybe reasons why she has done this ? not liking school ? being led astray ? not pointing the finger, just trying to understand what may have prompted this.