What are the main differences between a private "primary/prep"school and a very good primary state school?

[bettiejane]

My daughter is due to start nursery in a private schools nursery dept. We were wondering what the main differences would be when she actually starts school with the 2 different types of school?
Obviously the fees!

But our local state primary is very good and oversubscribed,so she may not get a space. Is it really worth paying out for private? Especially if I have to work an extra day!

Any views?

I've also wondered about the DIY approach to extra-curricular/after school activities to fill in the gaps of state schooling. I think if they don't do it alongside other children in their peer group, and/or if you can't be there to chauffer them about, it just isn't the same. It's best if trying out different sports or cultural activities just becomes second nature to them; something they do regularly. I know parents can make this happen and help to create that openess, but geez sometimes it's challenging.

When I suggest certain activities (going to a castle, museum, for a hike, etc) to my 9 year old step son he just looks at me like "why the heck would I want to do that when I can play on my playstation?" I don't mean to suggest this is the norm among state educated children, or that all prep school kids would be willing, but it would help if he were in an environment where exploration was encouraged and facilitated more than it is at his Estyn (the Welsh ofsted) outstanding school.

I'm also slightly concerned about academic standards, even at "outstanding" schools, because from what I understand they are no longer being taught to memorize the timetables (one of the few things about maths class that really did turn out to be useful!) and the other day he couldn't find GB on a map, whereas our 3 year old could...

Anyway, I know that's just anecdotal but nevertheless a little worrying!

Litchick, would happily send DS2 there now but they don't have an intake at his year and am emotionally committed to him remaining at his primary school, with his friends, because of all the lovely good things about it (it is a lovely good school). But think musically and academically he'd really benefit from the other one.

Erebus - well, I wouldn't call it free

Completely agree with you fenner. It's not as easy to get them to want to go on activities.

The good is taken out of it when you force them to go. The subsequent mood is one of bruised ego, resentment at being 'made go' and determination not to enjoy the trip/activity.

They are so more open to going with their school.

Also, locating and physically being able to take your child to certain activities is constraining.

Over the years my DC have done a number of things I just don't think I would have had the wherewithall to offer myself.

That's why I am always when folk here say they will top up activities with the money they save from fees.

So after school you are really going to get your kids to join three teams, an orchestra, a choir and find tutors in several subjects?

At your local state school you will get parents who sing from different hymn sheets.
Larger class sizes.
Children who all live close to the school.
An ethos which has to be inclusive of any child offered a place regardless of ability, socio-economic background, SEN etc.
DIY extra curricular activities which mean that dc's mix with a wider range of kids from the local community.
Ours also had access to a wide range of artistic and creative projects, an excellent choir, sports clubs etc
Fantastic enrichment and extension when they need to be stretched and free one-to one tuition when they are not reaching their potential.
DC's eager to learn, love school, well socialised and extremely well educated inmho.

I would never deny my children the privilege of a state education and fwiw they were all required to memorise their timestables in primary and they're not even in an outstanding school.

When I read the implicit 'your child will only get a decent education if you fork out minimum 10k a year' comments, I want to cry. It's not necessarily true but you probably need to believe it if you're handing over that much money. And then you need to justify the privileges that go with an inherently unfair system. So it goes on.

your state primary may well be as fantastic as it sounds Maria33 but unfortunately your post just serves to underline the huge variations between different state primaries.

My dcs' state primary was nothing like the nirvana you describe ... no enrichment worth speaking about, very few extra-curricular activities and those that were on offer were of a very low standard, disengaged, frankly bored children. One of my dc has been lucky and has a fantastic local group of friends, however my other two were not - social isolation + boredom do not make happy children. They both moved to the private sector and are extremely happy.

maria if your state primary is as good as you say, then I'm pleased for you.

Almost as pleased as you are with yourself.

However, even you must realise that there is patchy provision in this country and your wonderful experience is worth jack shit to parents whose children do not access to your school.

At the risk of making sweeping generalisations, here's my view:

At private school teachers have tended to have an academically rigorous education themselves. They can usually spell and have good grammar. It's generally harder to get a job in private sector and the teachers IME tend to be livelier, and certainly appear more intelligent and enthusiastic on balance. Anecdotally teachers I know, and haven't rated, haven't managed to get jobs they've applied for in the private sector but have been welcomed by the state.

I have a son in a state primary school and some experience of the state secto. I have emails and communications which contain 'alot', 'should of/could of' which are the norm rather than the exception. No one seems to understand how to use an apostrophe, they are all over the place and added on a whim. Maths is 'math's', apparently this could be correct as it's a contraction my colleague tells me? I think so but am no expert. I could go on... Personally I haven't come across many prep school teachers that do this.

My friends tell me that good grammar and spelling 'are not important' especially at primary level. What matters is good teaching, a sound PGCE and a caring attitude. Perhaps? I'd like to see good spelling and grammar too but then apparently I am very 'old fashioned'. :) Guess it depends on your belief and value systems and as someone said it's dangerous and not terribly useful to compare 'all' state with all independent schools.

That was uncalled for Litchick

Those of us with children in state schools do, I think, realise they're not all fabulous. I went to an appalling state primary myself. But many are excellent, especially at primary level, and to dismiss state education without checking it out first is blinkered.

I think you also need to consider the disadvantages of small class sizes. My DD is in a small village school with class sizes of around 9-14 (although they double up years after recpetion). The positive is of course the amount if individual time they get, but the disadvantage is there is a much smaller "pool" for making friends, and this has been an issue (and I know has been a huge problem for some children. Just something to think about....
And Litchick - many of those things can be done in states schools too.

I would personally take the benefit of a child being appropriately pushed, believed in and fully 'known' over the disadvantage of a smaller pool of friends.

9-14 versus 30, well there would be no debate for me.

In a class of 30 the teacher (even an outstanding one) just doesn't have the time to nurture each child appropriately IMO. Or at least this has been my experience.

I've taught a group of 11 children in the past, it was an absolute joy and delight. I knew them all you see and could watch as weaker areas became strengthened etc. This wasn't in a school I have to add, but I think the same principle applies.

DC's prep:

Sport everyday, swimming once a week or more if in an afterschool club.
Academically working about 18 months ahead.
Class sizes between 10 and 16.
Homework done in school - can't put a price on that!

The problem with an outstanding state primary is that the class sizes are full to capacity. I have ad DC in both outstanding and small "average rated" village state school. The smaller sizes in the village state school meant that DC was cared for better and improved more academically.

Also music, drama and art cannot be compared. In prep/independent schools the facilities are often better than universities. For art they weld, have a kiln, melt plastics. They have 14 different instrumental ensembles and the kids put on proper productions, not the cute guff that you get in a state school.

I'm not criticising state schools but all these things make children more confident and physically dextrous which then helps them to perform better in the class.

What you get in a private school is, sadly, the exclusion of kids like mine -- those needing a lot of extra help.

Oh, and parents with an income over the £10000 per child mark, after tax.

Oh well. I got to Cambridge without it, as did did DH.

Another thing that four of my friends have noticed and all with kids at different state primaries is that a child's work, usually maths, is marked correctly when it is wrong.

Primary teachers are not well educated. They should have at least a high grade A'level in English or Maths but none of that is required. Their spelling, grammar and maths is usually substandard.

Two points I think are worth noting for parents whose children fall outside the standard bell curve of abilities: (1) IME prep schools have flexibility re: summer born children, etc - it is not that unusual for children to move down or (less commonly)up a year. (2) sometimes SEN services in private sector will need to be funded by the parent, whereas some of the LEAs have outstanding provision within the state sector that could far exceed what a private school will offer.

Cortina - my DD are in a state school with those class sizes.

An there is strong research to suggest that social skills are one of the major determinants of success in adult life so I wouldn't discount the disadvantages of reduced social opportunities / friends.

But was Cambridge successful? Can you afford private schooling for DC's?

What a lovely euphemistic thread!

Wrap around care already picked up on.

"parents singing from the same hymn sheet" means what - parents who give a shit and can manage to send in pe kit on the right day?

If you are fortunate enough to have access to a good/outstanding primary then in my book this has to be preferable to the private sector for the following reason. In state schools children are far more likely to encounter a mix of children from a wider array of socio-economic backgrounds (even in schools in so-called affluent areas) and thus develop a more realistic view of society. They are also far less likely to develop the superior attitude that some privately educated individuals seem to possess. At the end of the day school facilities & activites, class sizes and the standard of teaching are not the only relevant factors. Parental support and the child's motivation and willingness to learn are also crucial.

ArticLemming - I do hope you are right. I also agree with Nanjizal to a point. I would say that a child is, very broadly speaking, more likely to be 'well motivated and willing to learn' at a prep school than at a state school for all the advantages/reasons given on this thread.

I do know of some very capable children in the private sector who have found that the level of sporting and academic competition and the elevated expectations at school have left them feeling less confident about their own abilities, and consequently less motivated.

I don't know why the argument of a better social mix is always brought up when parents end up socially engineering who comes to there house! Parents often make their own social cliques in the playground. Where is this real world? What is so amazing about the working class kid or the upper class kid that my child has to meet both on a daily basis. Once we become adults we all seem to manage to rub along regardless of what school we've come from.

A social mix is not always a good thing, especially when DC is being bullied by the poor child whose mother is a drug addict on benefits. Don't get me wrong I feel for such a child but my priority is my child and if less of a social mix ensures their happiness and success then it's private all the way.

As others have said "it depends" on many things. One thing I would say is worth considering, is the senior school situation - where might your DD (and any other subsequent DC) go at age 11/13? Could you afford to pay private all the way through, if not you might be better off going state while they're younger, and saving the money for when they're older. Alternatively if you have Grammar schools, then you might want them to go private earlier, as this might help them with Grammar school place - although again this might depend on the school and what preparation it does.

I think the general point, which a number of people have made, that it depends on primarily on local circumstances, still applies. I also think Maria and Nanjizal make good points, but I would question whether this is really a terrain for moral absolutes. I used to think it was, too.

As far as financial exclusion goes, our local prep costs around £5k - £6k/year, including school meals and a range of extracurricular (sport, music, languages) that it would cost a small fortune to self fund. It is not financially out of reach to families on a lot less than £100k/year, but it does mean sacrifices (e.g. no or fewer holidays, an older car, etc) that I can totally see why parents would choose not to make, especially if they're happy with their local state schools. If they are on average or beneath average incomes, there is no choice. And I can see why that feels wrong.

But here's another side to it, and why I now think twice before judging parents who don't go for the state option, as we did. Local state schools have little in the way of ethnic diversity, whereas the prep has about a third of children from ethnic minority backgrounds. I can see why some parents might feel uncomfortable sending their children to schools where 98% of the children are white. (I'm also aware of the irony that the situation is often the other way around, and prep schools don't reflect the diversity of the communities in which they are based, either socio-economically or ethnically.) Of course, there's then the chicken and egg problem that local state schools will stay homogenous as long as this dynamic continues.

In the end, I can see how it is better to work with other parents to improve local state provision than to give up and look to the private sector, but I can also see how it's often local circumstances that often drive parents' decisions, and how I'm not in the position to judge them.