How to argue against a new admission to ds's already large class.

[jollyma]

Ds attends a small village school with a published admission number of 32 for key stage 2. In September an extra child was admitted due to an "administrative error" by the LEA taking the class upto 33. In January another child who moved into the village was admitted on appeal.

I have found out today that another appeal is to take place in 2 weeks. If this is successful the class will have 35 children.

The school is fairly short of space and doesn't have enough computers for over 34 children (working in pairs). There is also an issue with the size of the classroom used for year 4.

I understand from the head that the child is living out of area and has no special needs and so it is possible that the appeal will be refused.

Does anyone have any tips that may help. I am intending writing a letter to the LEA before the appeal, what information should I include? Am I completely wasting my time? Is it worth having a letter written by a solicitor?

Thanks in advance.

Yes, I sit on panels for admission and exclusion appeals in London.

As I said, complaining parents might have some very small effect in alerting the LEA to potential problems with overcrowding/shortage of facilities and equipment although, in reality, I doubt that the LEA needs to hear about these things from parents as they should already be well aware of them. There are (for example) guidelines about the square footage of classroom space that should be available in KS1 (and possibly also in KS2, I don't remember offhand and, forgive me, haven't got time just now to double-check). Many of these considerations are taken into account when setting the school's admissions number in the first place. Even so, there is a vast difference between parents making the LEA aware of potential problems (which, as I said, I think is probably superfluous but not actually harmful) and appeal panels being swayed by lobbying by parents either for or against the admission (which would subvert the whole purpose of the appeal as an impartial weighing-up of prejudice to the child and to the school).

Mistakes by LEAs in the admissions process are, thankfully, relatively rare. But if a child has been refused a place that they should have been given, then the LEA is obliged to correct the mistake. Most LEAs will correct the mistake and offer the place on their own initiative, but some insist that the parents go through the appeal process. Either way, it seems to me that natural justice says the child should get their place - it's not their fault that the LEA got it wrong.

I can understand your worries, but you do (I think) have to remember that there is no legal ceiling on the numbers in KS2 as there is for KS1. New schools are being built around here as a result of demographic pressures and parents' campaigns. If you want to do something similar, contact your local councillor and take it from there.

Oops. Very long post. Will shut up now.

Durham, as far as I know noone has been anything but friendly with the family who started last week.

The head told me the info I have. I asked her if there were any extra resources needed to deal with the recent increase in numbers. In discussion I got a feeling that she was holding something back, asked if I was allowed to ask if any further appeals were under way and she told me that as I had asked she was allowed to tell me. Should she not have? She encouraged me to write a letter. Its seeming a bit odd now, I'm wondering what her motives are.

Panelmember, one of the things that bugs me is that the next school down the road has 8 places. And before anyone says it, if I could walk there my son would go there. Its a good school.

I think the Head is v wrong to ask you to write. And even more wrong to give you info on the child. What business is it of yours (or anyone elses not directly involved in the appeal) if the child has Special Needs or where he lives? It is a v strange way for a school to be run.

Having been through the appeal process twice I know that the headteacher is given the opportunity to comment. In our case they didn't because they had no objection. If your Head thinks that the addition of another pupil will be detrimental he will put forward a letter. If he doe ant then there is no issue for the school. The Head is a better judge of this than you.

The Head sounds very unprofessional, giving out this information. Jollyma, leaving aside the issue of the appeals, doesn't this make you wonder what other confidential information the Head is telling other people - possibly even about your own child(ren)?

Since Panelmember has shut up, I'll come in with a long post!

I think it is debatable whether or not the head should have told you. I would personally tend to the view that the head should have kept this information to herself. The LA may not be too happy that she has told you or that she has encouraged you to write a letter.

When a child is admitted due to an administrative error as happened in September it invariably means that the child should have been offered a place but a mistake was made and it was offered to someone else instead. The LA aren't allowed to take away the offer that has been made by mistake, so all they can do to rectify the situation is to admit the child who should have been offered a place as well.

The child admitted in January will have been allowed in because the appeal panel decided that the prejudice to the child in not being admitted to this school outweighed the prejudice to the school (including existing pupils) by admitting an extra child. That is the judgement the panel is required to make. It isn't an exact science. Different panels faced with the same facts may come to different conclusions. But that is what the panel is there for.

The new child will be an in year application. It is almost impossible for there to be an administrative error with an in year application so it will be down to balancing prejudice. The fact that there is one more child in the year than there was last time will weigh the scales more heavily in favour of the appeal being rejected. Many panels will feel unhappy with a class of 35. However, there are no guarantees. If the parents have a really good case they may still get in.

Starting a fund raising campaign to get some extra resources for the school would be a positive thing to do. Does your school have a PTA? If so, they are probably crying out for parents to get involved. If not, perhaps you could get a few other parents together and start one.

I dont trust her at all, she is unprofessional with information. I think thats one of the reasons I've posted this question. I dont know her motives and feel uneasy about the whole situation.

And if there is a school down the road with places, the LA will tell the panel that the child will go there if the appeal fails. The panel will therefore be assessing the prejudice to the child in going to that school rather than your school.

If she is unprofessional with information I would watch out that she doesn't do something that breaks the Data Protection Act. If you have serious concerns you should raise this with the LA.

prh, your summary of previous admissions is pretty much spot on. Fund raising isn't an issue, our PA (which I am involved in) has plenty of funds. That was why I was speaking to the head about it today.

EdgarAleNPie, I would much rather put my efforts into something positive like extra resources. Does anyone know how I would go about this?

the headmaster at on of the schools i looked at got an extra TA for an oversubscribed class - he pestered the LEA for the money (in that case the additional admission was the LEAs mistake). talk to the Head..or write to the LEA - with your best Concerned Parent writing hat on.

I teach a year 3/4 class of 37 in a small school. It works fine for the children, but ... the marking!!!!!

Don't think you would have any influence and am very suprised at HT giving out information like this - it almost sounds as if she is campaigning against the child - not a good start!

Why don't you start fundraising for a couple more laptops and maybe offer to help out in the class to free up a bit more teacher time for the children?

OP if you must try and influence the panel then what you need to do is to make sure that the LA put forward the best possible case not to admit. You can only do that via the school and LA and I expect they will politely tell you to go away!
To be honest what you describe suggests that the LA is not doing a particularly good job of making a case not to admit. It could also be that the 3 who were admitted over the 32 pan were actually very deserving cases and all got in on their stage 2 personal reasons.
However there does come a point where having any more in a classroom becomes unacceptable for most panel members and the prejudice to the class becomes unsurmountable and for me 35 is actually that number.

Agree, redirect energy into campaigning for a TA for the class. You'd have everybody's support for that.

Let us know what happens. Maybe 35 is the number when they just say no regardless of any other factors.

I have taken all the opinions here on board and think I am going to speak to the head and let her know that I wont write a letter because it seems we share the same opinion on further increases and therefore my views will be represented in the schools feedback. Still slightly confused why she encouraged me to write, wondering if she is trying to deflect responsibility so that if this child is admitted the current parents aren't complaining to her.

UnSerpent, I would quite happily help in class but they dont allow parents to help in their own kids classes. I have listened to reading in other classes in the past. That does sound like a lot of marking! Glad to hear that you feel it works fine for the children.

Yes, good move I think. If you offer yourself up like a pawn she can be a diplomat and 'blame' the parents. THIS parent in particular, here's a letter she wrote... see her name at the bottom?

Definitely wouldn't put my name a letter in your shoes!!

I can understand why you are worried - teacher time is an issue. Hopefully it won't be as catastrophic as you fear. Fingers crossed.

jollyma- I'd feel as uneasy as you do. I think the first few posters who said 'it's nothing to do with you' are talking rubbish. To say 'unfortunately, the way the system works means you can have no input into this' is one thing, but to claim that you should have no interest in the overcrowding of your DC's classroom the yet further thinning out of resources, potentially further disadvantaging the existing crowd of DCs is deeply unfair.

I wonder if these might be amongst the type of posters who always cite 'the small class size/individual attention' remarks on the 'why my DC has to go private' threads??

erebus the posters who are saying that know what they are talking about (yes you might be justifiably concerned) but unless you want to move your child there is nothing you can do

My DS was admitted as either number 34 or 35 into Y3 of a village primary. Set a lot of the parents buzzing and DH faced a deputation one evening with them asking where we lived and why we were there

The reason the school allowed the class to get so big was that they wanted to build an extension and needed to show they were overcrowded! It worked, and the extension was up and running before DS left.

Is this what your school is trying to do?

There is no limit on the number of children in a KS2 class providing the classroom is large enough to accommodate them

Just want to say i really understand worrying about class sizes my daughter went to a primary school with classes of 37.I know it didnt do anyone any good one teacher and 37 children age 6 and 7 if i had had a child before i would have moved her but i didnt know what to do or to expect My daughter hated the noice and left primary school barely able to read although is now doing A levels unfortunately still has a spelling age of9 at the most and struggles to read .In our experience you dont get anywhere with lea apart from if you manage to get a education physicologist however you spellit to do an assesment they seem to be really nice people the problem is there are so many children struggling and class sizes can be ridiculous