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Original poster

How to argue against a new admission to ds's already large class.

49 replies

jollyma · 12/01/2011 16:23

Ds attends a small village school with a published admission number of 32 for key stage 2. In September an extra child was admitted due to an "administrative error" by the LEA taking the class upto 33. In January another child who moved into the village was admitted on appeal.

I have found out today that another appeal is to take place in 2 weeks. If this is successful the class will have 35 children.

The school is fairly short of space and doesn't have enough computers for over 34 children (working in pairs). There is also an issue with the size of the classroom used for year 4.

I understand from the head that the child is living out of area and has no special needs and so it is possible that the appeal will be refused.

Does anyone have any tips that may help. I am intending writing a letter to the LEA before the appeal, what information should I include? Am I completely wasting my time? Is it worth having a letter written by a solicitor?

Thanks in advance.

OP posts:
Rosebud05 · 12/01/2011 17:04

I don't think you are able to influence the decision. You have no idea why this family is appealing - the head is unlikely to have given you confidential information about their circumstances.

As far as I know, the decision will concern the benefit to the child vs the increased class size, so all factors that you mention will be taken into consideration by the LEA.

Panelmember · 12/01/2011 17:08

As a parent at the school, you have no input to the appeal. The LEA will be presenting the case against admission and will presumably already be aware of the issues that concern you. By all means write to the LEA.

Northernlurker · 12/01/2011 17:10

Yes you are wasting your time - it's nothing to do with you!

Blu · 12/01/2011 17:15

How come you know any details at all about the child at the centre of the appeal?

Let the Head know of any concerns you have about over-corwing etc, but I don't think you have any business commenting on any particular application!

prh47bridge · 12/01/2011 17:30

Agree with Panelmember.

Lamorna · 12/01/2011 17:50

Another one to agree with Panelmember

scurryfunge · 12/01/2011 17:53

ditto -none of your business.

LoopyLoopsIsNoLongerFestive · 12/01/2011 17:55

I agree too.

I'm a bit Hmm that you have all these details to be honest. It sounds as of the head or another member of staff is being quite unprofessional.

GrungeBlobPrimpants · 12/01/2011 18:02

Nothing to do with you - entirely decision of LEA who will balance needs of appellant with needs of school.

Hmm at solicitors letter ....

ValiumTinselton · 12/01/2011 18:05

I was ready to be the only person to tell you that that wouldn't be fair. Afterall, if they allowed too many children in to start with by mistake, then it could have been your child that wasn't admitted to begin with.

If there ARE 35 children in the class, perhaps a few will move elsewhere over the next few years (perhaps)

activate · 12/01/2011 18:06

I am sure with the funding the extra child brings they will have an extra laptop bought

you have no say in this

WimpleOfTheBallet · 12/01/2011 18:08

Yes....leave it. You can have NO idea how a child attending "your" school will affect his or her life. Leave alone.

taintedpaint · 12/01/2011 18:10

Another vote here that you should stay out of it.

And also Hmm that you would even consider going to those lengths. Horrid.

mrsscoob · 12/01/2011 18:24

I just hope it is only you that has this info and not all the rest of the parents, otherwise I would feel very sorry for the child and their family if they did start, knowing that the other parents didn't want them there :(

Original poster
jollyma · 12/01/2011 18:35

Thanks for all your comments. Its interesting that the general feeling is that letters from parents have no influence and the strength of feeling that it shouldn't bother me that an extra child joins the class. As I explained previously it really has more to do with physical space and facilities at a very small school than anything else.

I hate the idea of having to go down a formal route but if this was the only way I would have thought about it (but not necessarily decided to go ahead). I'm not out to prevent another child benefitting from a decent education but surely there is a point when the education of all the children in the class starts to suffer?

Is a class of 35 normal in other small schools? I'm trying to work out why I'm faced with such strength of feeling.

OP posts:
GrungeBlobPrimpants · 12/01/2011 18:39

Jollyma - if the issue is physical facilities then that's looked at by the panel. The panel looks at potential detriment to other children. Only the panel can make this decision, NOT the other parents who would have no idea of the individual circumstances.

My elder child was in a class of 35 in KS2. Her class was a damn sight easier to manage than my ds's class of 29. Dynamics and all that.

EdgarAleNPie · 12/01/2011 18:40

what you should be campaigning for is additional resource, surely?

Northernlurker · 12/01/2011 18:48

Look - in the state system you get the education the state chooses to be able to provide. You can choose between schools and you can object to certain practices but you don't get to control to the degree that you seem to want to. You just don't have any place to object here - your voice is represented by the LEA's position. That's why you're getting the replies you are. Plus of course it's not a great way to react to new people. Seems to me like you're thinking 'you don't belong here' 'you can't have what we've got' 'your one child is one too many' - really negative isn't it? I understand you're worried but this is both premature and irrelevant to the process now going on.

DurhamDurham · 12/01/2011 18:58

When I moved back Up North we had to appeal to get dd2 in to an over-subscribed 'full' school. It was stressful and v emotional.

We went armed with facts/stats and the LEA rep really shot herself in the foot when I asked her why if there were 31 in one year 6 class there wasn't room for 31 in the other. She said that one classroom was bigger than the other. So I asked to have the classroom measured.
The appeal was adjurned for 10 mins whilst someone phoned the school to measure the classroom. Both classes were the same size. So all we had to do them was convince them that it was right for our dd2 to go to that school. Which was easy and we won Smile

I'm so glad I wasn't up against a parent like the Op. I think she sounds v narrow minded and precious.

Panelmember · 12/01/2011 18:59

OP - As has been said, the point is that the panel hears the parents' arguments for the child to be admitted and the LEA's and school's case for them not to be admitted. The panel then weighs up the arguments and decides who would face the greatest prejudice - the child or the school (and the children already in it).

There is no space in that process for lobbying by parents, whether for or against the child to be admitted and, frankly, it would become very ugly and unfair if there were. That, I think, is why views are being expressed quite forcibly here - you seem to be arguing that admission appeals should become some sort of popularity contest with parents of existing pupils voting yes or no.

LEAs invariably argue that the school is too cramped, there are not enough facilities to accommodate another child etc etc - just the sorts of concerns that you have mentioned. They won't be overlooked. As I said, write to the LEA if you feel they are missing something but, really, I doubt you can tell them anything they haven't already heard.

Portofino · 12/01/2011 19:02

I feel sorry for the poor child! Presumably if they have found space in a full class, there are very good reasons for that. I bet if the shoe was on the foot, you'd be like a pig in shit to have got the place.

ChasingSquirrels · 12/01/2011 19:08

as an aside - where do you find the PAN for KS2?
Our school has a PAN of 17 - but 21 started in ds1's year, and now in yr3 he is in a mixed yr3/4 class of 34 (with another 4 yr 3's in the mixed yr1/2 class).
No, I don't think it is great. But it isn't my decision. My decision is then whether I want my ds there, and that is one of the factors I have to consider along with everything else.

Original poster
jollyma · 12/01/2011 19:52

Panelmember, your comments make a lot of sense. Sounds like I should trust that the LEA will make the right decision. My confidence in their capability to do so has been knocked by their previous mistake. Do you have experience on these panels as your name suggests? I have experience working in the NHS and while complaining parents officially dont make a difference to decision making in reality they do! Is this the case in education?

EdgarAleNPie, I would much rather put my efforts into something positive like extra resources. Does anyone know how I would go about this?

DurhamDurham, what was your experience of starting at a school that had initially refused you a place? Did you get bad feeling from the other parents?

OP posts:
DurhamDurham · 12/01/2011 20:05

Well I just reasoned that they didn't know dd2 when they refused her a place so it wasn't at all personal.
Half an hour after we had won the appeal (on a friday afternoon) we were at the school buying uniform and everyone was lovely.
When she started the following monday parents and children alike were v friendly. As far as I know the appeal was never mentioned again.

StayingDavidTennantsGirl · 12/01/2011 20:10

Jollyma - how did you get all this info about the child whose parents are appealing for a place?