classical education/trivium/Latin/Greek

[ZZZenAgain]

Am thinking of asking MN to set up a sub-topic in education on classical education but not sure if there would be enough interest to warrant a separate topic.

Is there anyone who is strongly for or against classical education?

(Am currently reading "Climbing Parnassus" and thinking about this whole thing a bit.)

The availability of Latin was a big consideration in choosing (state) secondary schools for DD1, and she'll be doing it next year in Yr8 (hooray!)
I'm incredibly grateful I had the opportunity to do both Latin and Greek to A-level in the state system, and then through a degree to post-graduate research. I don't expect many future students will have this chance. I remain passionate about the huge value of a classical education.
Classics is an excellent way to get a really good conceptual understanding of grammar and how languages work. It's also a very broad subject; you study the literature, history, art, politics, philosophy etc of two whole cultures. It's a huge shame that Classics has been attacked by both the Left and the Right as elitist and/or irrelevant.

I'm not anti Latin per se, but given the limited curriculum time a student has to learn a new language, I would much rather it was one that was currently in use.

I think that all languages should be taught with a much more rigorous emphasis on grammar (including English). Then, the language would not only offer an understanding of grammar and open doors to classic literature in the original, but also to a country you could potentially explore, live and work in. This to me is the best of all worlds.

much rather it were one. Feeling self conscious on a thread talking about grammar!

Ideally you'd get the chance to do both modern languages and Latin!
DH (also a Classicist) and I have picked up German, Italian and Portuguese as adult learners and use these regularly in business. There are loads of opportunities to learn modern languages out of school but very few to do Latin or Greek.

There used to be secondary school tht taught Latin right next to our house. It taught Latin to the top set and Classical Civilisations to the lower sets, right in the middle of a former mining town, in the eighties.

It has been knocked down now :(

It was the well trained mind that made us want to home educate, but looks like we can't do HE (unless of course there are problems with our plan of school and topping up, in which case I'll HE in a box rather than send the kids to an unsuitable school)

It just seems so sad that my children will learn how to sit down, shut up and read aloud, whereas the ruch kids are being taught how to debate and stand up for themselves, with access to a world of knowledge. :(

I'm not as clever as most of you and can't enter into this debate but this is precisely why we went independent. The grammar local to us is not renowned for language teaching. The DS has decided that this is the route he wants to go and would not have had the opportunity to do so if we hadn't been able to pay.

I was absolutely horrified when we were looking at secondary schools to see that some of our local schools only offered one modern language and that most pupils studied that for three years and then dropped it. Only the brightest were given the chance to do GCSE, and even then it wasn't pushed that hard because it's easier to get a good grade in other subjects.

My children were very lucky with the language provision in both their schools. At school my daughter did French from year 7 to GCSE, Spanish for two years (could have taken it to GCSE but dropped it for Art - mistake, heigh ho) and Latin from year 9 to GCSE. This was at a voluntary aided comprehensive school. All those languages were available to A level and I believe the school now offers Italian as well.

My son took French, Latin, German and Italian to GCSE and is doing AS German and Italian. His school also teaches Ancient Greek, Mandarin and Spanish. It's an independent boys' school.

Hi all, sorry had no time to MN the past few days, will have a read of the thread now

go on gramercy , I dare you! It is always easier to imagine doing this kind of thing than to put it into practice, isn't it?

The emphasis seems to be these days on improving spoken communication ability, perhaps to the detriment of grammatical mastery but I really feel you do need both in order to speak a language well.

My mother told me that although they did French, German and Latin at school and ocvered a lot of ground, she did not really feel confident speaking the MFL. I think this is what MFL teaching nowadays is supposed to be working to overcome. I am not sure how successful it is tbh.

Tinu,it sounds as if you do quite a bit of language work with your dc. If they are learning Latin, Spanish and French concurrently, I wonder if it is difficult for them to keep the languages apart in their minds, all three being romance languages. I should have thought that might be quite difficult but perhaps if they are at different levels in each language, the problem doesn't really arise.

Please no one feel self-conscious about making grammatical or spelling mistakes etc, I make them all the time. It is not actually supposed to be a high-brow thread or about being pedantic -even if it came across that way.

I loved Latin and Ancient Greek. It's not just the language you study - there's art, poetry, civilisation, history...It's a completely different world view in a way which for many is much easier to grasp than the idea of the French or the Spanish having a completely different world view.

Ancient Greek in particular was fascinating for the different alphabet. I think even at 13 I appreciated the intellectual exercise but doubly so now.

MFL teaching is dire though and needs improving drastically.

I agree, I loved it too, although tb(strictly)h, my ardour for Greek cooled once we were confronted with the range of dialects .... and everyone had a wtf moment and raced off to get a decent translation, I will freely admit.

I thought the govt. was keen to promote MFL teaching in state schools LM (this govt. and the previous one). Is that not the case? I am overseas so I may well be out of touch.

I could imagine though that Latin and Greek will be increasingly phased out of state schools which I find a great shame. Those languages and all the background knowledge that comes with learning them really shouldn't be the sole provence of independent schools who most certainly will not drop the classics any time soon. At least I would be surprised if they did.

Someone wrote further down how full the curriculum already is and that there really isn't much chance of fitting in ancient languages and MFL on top of everything else. Maybe that is part of the problem. I wonder if we are filling the currciculum with the wrong subjects though tbh

If you do have dc learning Latin, which textbooks are they using? Am just curios.

Tinu, you said you are working with Cambridge and Galore Park as a HE. Are you teaching French with Galore Park as well?

What are dc using at school these days as a Latin textbook - Ecce Romani?

Have never heard of that book : "The Core..."

Yes, I use GP for French and Spanish. I would say that the French is a bit weak on the listening side (to the point that I didn't even buy the audio CD for book 2) but the Spanish audio is very good.

What they are both good at is teaching grammar in a logical, methodical way with plenty of practice! Something we don't get enough time to do teaching MFL at school - too busy trying to get them to talk/communicate/be creative! These are all very worthwhile things to do - once you know what you are doing with the language (ie once you have learned some grammar!)

We also buy DVDs and books in France so that we can watch films/read books in French. I usually look for books that have been translated from English (eg Harry Potter/Famous Five/Milly-Molly-Mandy, We're Going on a Bear Hunt) as they are already familiar with the story so can concentrate on the French. Watching Ice Age in French was a scream!

Am still reading 'The Core...' - it's very interesting and has given me some good ideas, both for home and school. The thing I most want to try (the DCs and me!) is learning to draw maps from memory - something that was normal until photocopiers! That will probably be a real stretch (I am hopeless at drawing) but uses so many skills at one time. The author is a big believer in rote-learning (big part of 'classical' education in the Grammar Stage) because it's easier to do all the higher level thinking skills like analysing/synthesising if you actually know something in the first place!

sounds brilliant your HE. I don't think I would be any good at drawing maps from memory but then I have never tried!

Having just re-read my previous posts, I noted a lot of mistakes, so whoever posted they did not want to risk making mistakes on this thread, should please come back soon and not leave me to show myself up like that!

ZZZ hope you are the author of that book, because I have just ordered it on Amazon
I was lucky enough to have a fantastically inspiring Latin teacher - sadly only tracked him down to tell him so a few months ago, and he died last year he as the reason I did Latin A level, and also Greek O level (yes , am that old!) in the 6th form for fun... (in a Comp) - guess our kids don't get that luxury nowadays in the 6th form.
My elder Dc is at an indie where he has been doing Latin for 2 years and realy enjoys it, because unlike French (which he hates) it is 'logical' and there 'is no oral . This year he had started Greek and also enjoys it. they do go at acracking pace, and so i have to help jkeeping reminding him to learn the vocab, but it is goo to see him relsihing it, and the younger DC who does not yet have to learn is picking it up by hearing it. Will read the book with interest - thanks!!!

btw - I did the Cambridge course - Caecilius etc - DS is doing the Oxford course - much better imho.

I did Ecce Romani in primary school and Caecilius et al in secondary although top set Latin flew out the top of that series fairly quickly so we moved onto 'actual' Latin and half our lessons were Greek.

lol MrsG no, I didn't write that book! That would have been very sneaky of me, coming on here with a thread about my own book. I'll keep that in mind though..

How sad that your Latin teacher died before you had a chance to get in touch with him. When we were in Berlin, I kept thinking I would like to go back and see the lovely bear of a man who had looked after my dd in her first kindergarten. I was all set to go there on a Friday, met a friend two days beforehand and she told me had died, quite unexpectedly and far too young. I have always regretted not going to see him earlier. He was lovely with dd, such a kind man. If I had known about it, I would have liked to attend his funeral too.

I wonder how MFL teaching in schools could be more effective when the emphasis is on oral communication. How can you manage it with a class of say 30 pupils? To get them all speaking and to be monitoring it would really take up almost all your time, wouldn't it? I have often spoken to dc who have been learning English as a foreign language at school (since I live overseas) and depite having years of lessons, they seem barely able to understand anything. This changes once they are reading very fluently in English and learning copious lists of vocabulary off by heart for weekly tests. It does surprise me tbh when someone has had 3 years of English and does not understand "how old are you?" for instance. Perhaps my idea of how dc learn languages is not very realistic.

When my dd was about to start learning French in a small (private) group, I spoke to the French teacher. She told me the group had been meeting and having lessons (3 hours a week) for 2 years but it would be no problem if my dd joined the group as a complete beginner. I asked how this was possible, surely they would be much more advanced? The teacher told me that in fact despite 2 years of lessons, they had grasped very little. I mulled it over and decided that didn't sound like effective teaching to me. I wouldn't be satisfied with that as a parent. She seemed to think it took years and years of repetition before they picked up anything much (and were able to retain it). This was a group of only 4 dc so heaven knows how it works with 30 dc.

I don't think there was a single kid in my Latin class who didn't enjoy it, and we were not all "obvious" Latin pupils by any means. It was just so different from anything else we did in school. I absolutely loved doing the Cambridge series but I understand there are others which are preferred these days.

ZZZen, I do sometimes mix up the Romance languages. Once in a uni Italian exam I took some verb from French and sort of Italianised it and did a full conjugation of this faux verb. My prof thought it was amusing.

bet you made his day

book

See Galore Park has a new book out in March - Greeks and Romans. Might be interesting, as yet no possibility to view sample chapters so hard to say.

I did CC at school, because that's what us thickos did for GCSE if we weren't clever enough to get an A (no A* in my day) in Latin.

I think Latin is a fantastic tool to help with so many other languages. I do not understand why grammar schools don't do it as norm.

As a Latin teacher in a state school, I think it is incredibly valuable in terms of the skills it provides my students with. Many of my ks4 students also take a modern language and have said it supports their learning in that, as well as English and English literature.
It's fantastic to see support for it here!

Does anyone know of any Latin puzzle-type books? Ds is doing Latin privately, and is given ordinary homework, but I wondered if there was anything a little bit different for him to crack on with when he has a minute. I searched on Amazon but couldn't find anything suitable. He has just finished the first Cambridge Latin book, so he's at beginner's level really.