IQ predicted by parents white collar or blue collar job

[NorhamGardens]

I had to have one of mine assessed by an educational psychologist.

In passing we discussed DC's school, he used to work directly for the school.

He said with absolute conviction that a blue collar parent/s were likely to have a child with a much lower IQ and a white collar parent/s a child with a much higher IQ.

It made me wonder how many other professionals in similar fields have similar ideas?

I was very surprised. Surely this is classist and hasn't the 'thinking' behind IQ evolved anyway?

My daughter is bright and goes to a school most mumsnetters would flee from she will do very well, like her mother

I am not sure that people generally breed with those of the same IQ.

Whilst not stupid, I am very average in terms of my IQ. My husband is much smarter than I am. He saw me out and he fancied me and wanted to date me. Simple.

We obviously had things in common and I can make him laugh, we were compatible.

I've been to many public school speech days. The men often look like toads, the women rather stunning, the children rather gorgeous and interestingly usually taller than average. The trophy wife was alive and well as far as I can tell.

Norham - a lot of mothers at my son's school are very well off and I felt a little conscious of the fact that my family is not loaded. (Dh isn't really career driven and has suffered badly from depression for a few years now and I've pulled back a lot since having ds so I can work flexibly around him.)

Then I went to a party and met some of the Dads for the first time... many were much older, most of them not exactly lookers and dressed in middle class, middle aged man uniform. Realised there's no need to be even slightly jealous - my choices are just different from most of these women and I wouldn't want their set up.

Odd because many of my own friends have professional jobs but are quite different from these Dads. Maybe it's the difference between accountants and City types (most common jobs these Dads have) and the sort of jobs my own friends have. Maybe it's because I met my friends when we were all young and working in creative fields either as jobs or as hobbies that we hoped would turn into careers. Maybe it's an age thing. Maybe it's a thing about people who choose to leave London for commuter suburbia. I dunno.

So what is it that you object to...?

The idea what doctors on average have a higher IQ than binmen?

Or the idea that IQ is heritable?

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Let's change the debate entirely and say that the OP's educational psychologist's comments show that IQ tests measure learned cultural values rather than innate ability, shall we? Therefore of course middle class offspring do better.

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Or why not challenge the outdated notion of blue-collar and white-collar jobs, where what we really need is a distinction between skill/unskilled and requiring/not requiring academic qualifications?

NorhamGardens - The trophy wife idea is interesting because biologically speaking the children should inherit their fathers looks so that he doesn't kill them or leave them, maybe they grow into toads too.

You might be interested in IQ: a smart history of a failed idea by Stephen Murdoch. Before we correlate IQ with anything, what do we want to measure and what does an IQ test measure? What the Ed Psych says is probably true, but because IQ measures education, language and culture rather than an inherent trait.

Interesting. Mamatomany, do children always inherit the father's looks? Bernie Ecclestone's daughters are currently doing rather well by that example :).

I thought it was only early on that the children were supposed to resemble the father?

Off to read Deuchar's thread.

Ok one big thing missing rorm the equation. IQ is inherited - to some extent - but...

Let's say each individual is born with a set IQ that has a range of, say, 15 points. That is baby A has a range of 95 - 110. Baby B has a range of 95 - 110.

Baby A's dad is a blue collar worker, there is less money in the household and no books. Even with a good education at the local state school child A brings their IQ 5 points up the range when tested at 15 - now 100 (spot in average)

Baby B's dad is a white collar worker and the house is full of books. They near to a very good state school and the child at 15 is assessed as having an IQ of 105. The advantages offered to this child result in an IQ of ten points above the lowest in original range.

BTW please read mum for dad! It is just class has traditionally been assessed on male characteristics. To be honest even the terms blue collar and white collar worker means so little in today's' UK I am surprised that the ed psy mentioned them!

But there may be a grain of truth in what he says until we get true social mobility according to 'intelligence' ('tis a crap measure anyway!). Bring back free and well stocked school libraries, free university tuition for high achievers of any SE background and school meals and...everything!

It is not just inherited there are plenty of chances (nutrition etc etc) to bring out the most or not in a child.

Ed psy mentioned the average IQ for our school was higher than than the average due to the intake. It's a non selective state school in a middle class area. He actually said there were 'no blue collar workers' at the school.

I don't think you can compare being a doctor and being a cleaner - not usefully. Cleaning is often a job of circumstance, whereas being a doctor requires certain decisions to have been made in your teens and carried forwards at every point until you are 24 or so. Anyone can do a cleaning job providing they are able-bodied and can understand instructions, and it's a job that has nothing useful to say about a person's actual or potential educational level whatsoever.

I would say that in life, i have met very few stupid people, regardless of background or parents' job or anything - what differs is the culture they operate in, how much they value a certain kind of education, social and academic, and whether they see a correlation between jumping through certain hoops and achieving success. Smart people (and I don't include myself in this) see how to play a certain kind of game; talented people don't play the game but find their own way to win people round; many people realise there's a game but don't see why they should play it. Most people are capable in terms of IQ of passing exams, IMO.

That should read as no blue collar parents :)

If that's the school I'm thinking of, I can't see how that can be true! Not many, granted, but not none!

I think you can make useful assumptions about the average IQs of doctors and cleaners Unprune - not on an individual level bt on a population level.

As you said, anyone can be a cleaner, so the IQs of cleaners will range from low to high. Anyone cannot be a doctor - you must be of at least average intelligence to be a doctor (as well as all the decisions you have to make). So the IQs of doctors will range from average to high. Therefore the average IQs of doctors will be higher than that of cleaners, because there are no low-IQ people in the sample.

That still doesn't mean that any one doctor might not have a lower IQ than any one cleaner of course.

I think you can about doctors, for the reasons you give.
I think you can generalise about cleaners but cultural factors are going to muddy the waters quite considerably.

OK... So the fact that women are much less likely to get many high positions and are generally paid less in any given society must mean that their IQ is lower. Or am I missing something here?

The way IQ is measured, how some people get certain jobs, how some persons are trained to paly the system, how many experiences they are able to live, etc. makes such a difference that I cannot even imagine how to measure a corrrelation between IQ of different persons from different class.

IQ measures education, language and culture rather than an inherent trait

I naively thought everyone knew that, Deuchars, but seemingly not. It also bears repeating that an IQ of 100 is average by definition. No matter how the test is structured, half the population will get a result of 100. The nature of the test does, however, determine who falls above & below average.

Camaleon - because of the skills that IQ tests measure. Just as you wrote in your post: a child can be trained to know everything the test requires you to know, and to understand the kind of tasks it entails. If it tested common sense and practical skills, you'd have a different set of results.

ItsGraceAgain... I was trying to be ironic. I am so surprised some posters think that you 'can make useful assumptions about the average IQs of doctors and cleaners'. So if you can make those assumptions for the general population, you should also come to the conclusion that women have, in average, a lower IQ.

Sorry: thick of me!

Actually I suspect a lot of people do believe women have a lower IQ than men - even if they don't say so. The class/job thing really bugs me, too. I've often heard cab drivers referred to as thick - generally by posh people who can't read a map, never mind pass The Knowledge.

Did Mensa do the study based on people who are members of Mensa?

Would that not mean that people with white collar jobs are more likely to feel the need to join an organisation to prove how clever they are?

Or do you not think that Mensa may have a reason to want to flatter kiss the arses of those with a bit more cash?

My kids are bloody brilliant and we are well common.

So I have just disproved that survey all by myself

I agree ItsGraceAgain, but women and persons in blue collar jobs know they are wrong It is beyond their understanding to measure our IQ.

The IQ test was invented in usa by extremist facsists (Alfred Binet etc) and has been used throughout history to serve certain political shit.

Best book on the subject is : 'The Mismeasure of Man'.

IQ tests are load of rubbish. I was 'tested' twice as a child, a few years apart, and came up with wildly different results. This was based on fact that first time I took it I was turned off from school and did no work and watched TV all day, and second time I was tested I was engaged with school and had been working very hard.

Achievement comes from environment, nurture, attention span, good teaching and (above all) personal drive to succeed. Yes, there is a TINY kernel of natural ability in what we achieve in life, but it's no more than that - a tiny part.

Neighbour adopted baby of low achieving (drug addict) parent. The daughter is top of her class, really stunningly brilliant, owing to the single-minded determination and care given to her by her adopted parents. That will overcome 'genes' any day.

So, yes, it's all about the parents, but NOT the parents' genes - the parents' commitment to their children's education.

Emotional intelligence is far more important than any IQ test.

Without EI, the person with the highest IQ is in danger of under achieving.