I think the 11 plus is unfair

[LargeGlassofRed]

Dd1 failed her 11 plus today, she did'nt have tutoring just a practice paper from wh smiths.

It seams all of her close friends have passed, she' ok she does like the local comp, but she's dreading Monday at school

I seamed to be in the very small minority who hasn't paid for private tuition,

Just ranting really and feeling sad for her, I'm sure it will all blow over by next week.

'you can always move' is a load of crap
what about where you work, the feact that it costs 10+ grand to move , etc etc
I wouldn't move just because of schools
this is your whole life, not just the 15 yrs your kids are at school

The 11+ is unfair full stop..so glad we don't have it here

Think it's unfair that there is such a difference in education when you look at local comps. They should all be good and deliver good education - then people would not have to panic over sending their children to a grammar school even if they are not that academic.

This is not a dig at the OP by the way. I genuinely am disappointed that there is such a big variation in the quality of education in this country and the idea of buying a better education for your child is what's unfair (whether you have to move to a different area, pay for tutoring or sending your child to private school).

Mixed ability classes often don't serve the needs of the highest or the lower aptitudes

i agree totally - but there's no reason not to just set within schools, and maintain the ready possibility of moving kids up and down set without them moving schools.

Not sure how else you select though and make schools good. The schools that are rubbish where I live were rubbish 35 years ago when I was looking at secondary schools. The only difference I've seen is a deterioration of school standards at primary (used to be excellent).

Ds is at private school for a number of reasons (mainly wraparound care provision) but I strongly feel that I am paying for the standard of education that I got for free - long before the invention of the NC and SATs, Ofsted reports etc.

My catchment:
Our catchment grammar school 98% A-C at gcse

Our catchment secondary 25% A-C at gcse

Secondary in a more affluent part of town: 50% A-C at gcse

Something is very wrong here.

stoatsrevenge - the only figures you should be taking any notice of is the value add scores apparently, if the grammars have 120 genius' in each year and those genius all get A*'s it doesn't mean the school is better than the one who got 120 kids destined for the dole que 5 GCSE passes of any description.

The pass mark for my local gs was 400 out of 420, 95%. A child is highly unlikely to pass without additional coaching. It is unfair on those children who can't afford coaching or test papers, but so again is selection by mortgage which goes on in many counties.

I did go through the 11+ with DD. During that time, I learned that there were two types of GS entrance exams.

The first type is more sensible IMO which simply tests verbal and numerical reasoning. For this type of test, tutoring makes ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE. All you have to do is the practice papers.

The second type is where they test knowledge and a lot of state primary schools haven't covered the required ground. For this type of assessment, tutoring can be necessary because the stuff has simply not been covered in state schools.

But from what you have said, it sounds as though your DD was sitting the first type. In which case I say you should not beat yourself up. The tutoring would make no difference. It just wasn't meant to be.

Oh God, I'm dreading this. DD has just gone into year 5. Her friends all seem to having tutors, but we really can't afford it, and I've been told I'm hardly likely to get one now anyway.
I've bought the workbooks and test papers from WHS, and she seems to be doing ok with these, but I feel really guilty.
The local grammars are superb, the comps are awful. (two in special measures).

Just adding the point of view of grammar school teacher here - not really in response to op but to some posts. Where I teach is not a 'typical' grammar'; v high proportion of free school meals and a very mixed racial intake - I am very lucky to teach some v bright pupils who come from a wide range of cultural backgrounds but the fact that we are seen as 'not typical' says it all. Unfortunately, white middle class kids do have an advantage, whether it be material, social or cultural. The problem is that all schools are underfunded.
Btw Largeglass - you can appeal, process depends upon school / LEA but, and I speak honestly, some of the comps I know of are much better than some of the grammars so this may be a blessing in disguise.

interesting that people seem to have both comprehensives and grammars in the same area - we don't. Wish we did.

Sorry lilo - should have said 'secondary modern' not comp - appreciate this was misleading although quite a few parents in our LEA avoid the 11+ altogether as one of the 'non-grammars' is so good.

Mama - cva scores don't get individual children on FE courses. A-C gcses do!

Are there areas with comprehensives and grammars? Here we have selective and non selective schools,and the non selective schools are not comprehensive because they are almost without exception only taking the children who don't pass the 11+.

There are a handful of schools which are meant to be comprehensives,but they will also have lost many of the more academic children in their cachement areas to the grammars.

Why do you wish you had both,lilolilmanchester?

I wish we had both because DS better off in grammar, DD would be better off in a comp. But obviously you can't have both systems in same area!

But Lil, the areas that do have grammar schools (not many) also have comps - secondary moderns don't exist any more

Not so, Quattro. No comps round here - only GS and 'not GS'. None of them are commprehensives.

not true here. Our high schools are, effectively, secondary moderns. We have no comprehensives in our LEA at all.

(I am in selective area with grammars and high schools, no comps)

(and me )

What is the difference between a secondary modern and a comp in a grammar school area, other than the name?

And me too!
Possibly true in areas without many grammar schools ,Quattro,but not here (Kent)where we still have lots and lots of grammar schools,and so the other schools by default are not comprehensive.

In a totally comprehensive area (I was taught in one) there are no state grammar schools. So everyone goes to a comprehensive school, mixed ability classes until streamed by by subject. In a selective area, you have grammar schools for those who pass the entrance exam and then high schools for the rest, effectively the old secondary moderns.