Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

Original poster

I think the 11 plus is unfair

212 replies

LargeGlassofRed · 16/10/2010 19:58

Dd1 failed her 11 plus today, she did'nt have tutoring just a practice paper from wh smiths.

It seams all of her close friends have passed, she' ok she does like the local comp, but she's dreading Monday at school Sad

I seamed to be in the very small minority who hasn't paid for private tuition,

Just ranting really and feeling sad for her, I'm sure it will all blow over by next week.

OP posts:
mamatomany · 16/10/2010 21:02

Oh and this year I had a new baby I could give plenty of excuses why the time wasn't available to coach DD through this important year but it was my top priority.

ravenAK · 16/10/2010 21:02

Agree wholeheartedly Grimma - I also attended a grammar school, which is still flourishing.

I went to a RC primary, which 'fed' to a RC comp. Wanting to go to the grammar instead (I was one of the few non-RC pupils) was seen as quite peculiar; yet I was fully supported with practice papers beforehand.

If we're going to have grammar schools, primaries should be doing their best to prepare candidates. It really shouldn't be about who has parents willing to pay for tutoring, or clued-up enough to organise it themselves.

Lynli · 16/10/2010 21:02

It is a shame she did not pass, but it may be that she would find it too hard.

Children that only passed with lots of intensive tutoring will need to keep it up to survive.

I think you did the right thing.

She can still do well if she works hard.

bigchris · 16/10/2010 21:03

I can see where ingles is coming from
if we can afford it we will tutor our dcs because the grammar schools are the best in our area and the comps aren't Sad
if we can't afford it we'll practise the whsmith papers
but even if he passes there might not be a place
and if he doesn't it won't be the end of the world
as long as dcs are confident and work hard hopefully they ll be ok whatever the school
I'm kind of thinking we might not be able to afford for them to go to uni so what's the point of it all

Ingles2 · 16/10/2010 21:04

I'm not attacking Pixie ... Red says it quite clearly, she's ranting. Fine but it's unreasonable.
and she knows it.
I'm sorry her dd didn't pass, it must be a horrible feeling for her (dd)..
I just don't think it's reasonable to blame private tution or lack of.

lilolilmanchester · 16/10/2010 21:07

but some people "go without" just to feed and clothe their kids.... what are they meant to do re tutoring??? And practice papers from WH Smiths all well and good if you're one of the people who can understand them to help children know where they've gone wrong. Some very snobby middle class attitudes on this thread IMO

rainbowinthesky · 16/10/2010 21:07

But the very nature of a selective test means that some children will fail. They cant admit all of them regardless of who passed or failed so some of the children arent going to make it.
It is unfair that that a child should have to be tutored rather than rely on bare intelligence but there wont be many people just doing 1 practice paper as preparation.

Largeglassofred - if you honestly believe your dd has the academic ability but failed purely because she wasnt tutored enough I would speak to the head and collect evidence of her ability from her current school. I doubt it would help but if she is super intelligent and you ahve the evidence then maybe there's a tiny chance.

singersgirl · 16/10/2010 21:11

But the only reason grammar schools are 'the best' is because they cream off the most academic children - naturally this has a knock-on effect on staff recruitment, but it's not that teaching is necessarily much better.

I'm so fed up with seeing that old saw trotted out, that children who are tutored will struggle. When the new normal is being tutored, not to be tutored is a disadvantage. If children who're tutored are going to struggle, 80% of children at grammar/selective independent schools round here must be struggling. Of course they're not - everyone is just much better at taking exams.

mamatomany · 16/10/2010 21:15

If neither the child or the parent know where you've gone wrong on a practice paper then perhaps the grammar school isn't the right place for that family.

11+ is about technique, it's about seeing that one question is going to take 10 mins to read through and is worth the same marks as one that takes 1 min to read through and answering that question first when you're under time pressure. That's common sense.

Ingles2 · 16/10/2010 21:15

Crap lilolil... I used WHS / Bonds papers..
Cos that's what all the tutor round here use and as we did an hour work a day, every day, in the summer...I know we did the best we can.
I went to a grammar school in the 80's with no tutoring. didn't even know I was taking the 11+... these days it's a very different story. you only have yourself to blame if you don't know what you are up against.

lilolilmanchester · 16/10/2010 21:15

no, they don't cream off "the most academic children", they cream off some of the brightest children, would pass anyway, whether tutored or not - but there is a significant % who pass only because they were tutored, and get to grammar school ahead of brighter children who haven't been tutored. Not everyone can afford it, and state primaries don't train for 11+.

lilolilmanchester · 16/10/2010 21:16

ingles, in the 80s very few people would have been tutored. And presumably if your kids didn't understand one of the questions, you could explain it to them?? Not everyone can do that

lilolilmanchester · 16/10/2010 21:21

(and just to put my comments into context... my DS was not tutored privately, he did practice papers at home BUT DH and I could help him on things he didn't understand. He got a near perfect score.

DD on the other hand had some private tutoring as well as home practice, and failed. HOWEVER, her head and Yr 6 teachers told me that she is far brighter than quite a number of children who passed (and tbh DD and I know that too).

However, I can accept that DD had every chance to pass - with parents who can help her and a bit of tutoring, so perhaps grammar not right for her. This is NOT the case for everyone so I just feel really, really sorry for those who haven't had the samechances as others. I know kids who were tutored all through primary and passed by 1 mark or failed and got in on appeal - so how much brigher are they than the kids who weren't tutored and failed by 10 or 20 marks????

Ingles2 · 16/10/2010 21:22

That's where we get into the realms of "suitable for grammar" lilo.
I didn't need to explain anything to ds..he's much brighter than I.
If you have a child you need to explain every question to, then they're probably not suitable and tbh...that is the biggest problem here. Accepting your dc is just average.

cory · 16/10/2010 21:24

"the grammar schools are the best in our area and the comps aren't"

This is why I am very happy we do not have grammar schools.

singersgirl · 16/10/2010 21:25

As a generalisation, grammar schools cream off the most academically able children. Naturally at the individual level there are exceptions - not every child who passes an 11+ exam is brighter than every child who doesn't, but if you averaged the IQ (or whatever similar measure you choose) of children who passed a grammar school exam and compared it to the average of those who didn't, the grammar school pass average would be higher. The middle ground is where tutoring makes a big difference.

lilolilmanchester · 16/10/2010 21:25

yes, exactly ingles - as I said, the brightest children will pass whatever. But average - and even below average children tutored DO pass, average children not tutored don't. That's the whole inequality of the system. There are examples of this year after year afer year in our area..

Ingles2 · 16/10/2010 21:26

xposts Lilo (sorry watching X factor at the same time)
That will also, always, be the case.
I am dreading Monday,
Ds will be gutted if he doesn't pass,.
I don't care so much...ds2 has some SN, I can see Grammar isn't the be all and end all.

mamatomany · 16/10/2010 21:27

So what's your answer because locally the children who come from free school dinner homes are bused in free of charge to the grammar schools, take that away and they'd have to go to the crappy comps near their homes and wouldn't get anywhere at all.

Ingles2 · 16/10/2010 21:28

Is that to me Mama?

lilolilmanchester · 16/10/2010 21:29

mamatomy, don't get what you mean: passing 11+ to get into grammar and having free school meals/travel are completely separate things, surely???

lilolilmanchester · 16/10/2010 21:31

ingles, also watching x-factor! Good luck to your DS, sounds like he'll be fine ...

Ingles2 · 16/10/2010 21:31

I don't understand what free meals / buses have to do with it really...
we live in a rural area, you have to bused in whatever,... hence the reason the bus pass is £50 for everyone

MollieO · 16/10/2010 21:32

I did the first year of 12+ when it was briefly introduced (meant I spent an extra year at primary school doing nothing). We did 3 practice papers in class. The first one I failed as I had no clue but the second two I passed very well. Took the exam and it is probably the only time in my life where I knew before the exam that I would pass easily.

Ds is at prep school. We are in catchment for an out of county grammar. No tuition for 11+ at his school as they want the pupils to go on to the non-selective senior school rather than grammar. I know people who are reserving tutors now (ds is in yr 2). Seems completely mad to me.

I can understand the wish to have your child familiarise themselves with the style of the questions so that they understand the exam paper but I cannot see the point in doing more.

Some of my friends who passed the 12+ had a miserable first year at grammar. Although they had passed without tutoring they seriously struggled with the work. They moved to the local secondary school and thrived.

I cannot see the point of tutoring for 3 years to pass the 11+ because then you are committing yourself to tutoring whilst at grammar (which happens at our local one). That must make for a miserable school and home life.

Ingles2 · 16/10/2010 21:33

x posts..
Thanks Lilo,I've got my fingers crossed for him as that's what he wants.

Swipe left for the next trending thread