mid year appeal - grateful for advice

[melia]

Hi

We are due to move in about 4 weeks. My daughter has been given a place in Yr 5 at the middle school 5 mins walk away. My son has been refused a place in neighbouring primary as year 2 is 'full'. He has been given a place at a very nice school forty minutes walk away. I am awaiting an appeal date. My grounds for appeal are

1. The PAN is 36 (5 year groups) and there are 36 in Yr 2 but in three of the last five years there have been year groups of 37 and 38. The total number on roll is 174 but in the past five years there have been 176, 178 and 180. One of the year 2/3 classes has 28 children and the other year 1/2 class has 30. Current year 3 is quite small and has only 31 and will be mixed with the current year 2 to form 2 classes next year. All of this to me suggests that the school is not 'full' and can function with another child 'without prejudice'.

1. The allocated schools for my daughter and son start at the same time and I do not have a car. My daughter can walk alone but we would all have to set off at 8.05 for us to reach the allocated primary on time. My daughter would arrive alone at an empty middle school at 8.10 - 40 mins before it starts. I do not feel happy about this and feel it is unreasonable.

1. From Sept 2012 my youngest son will start in reception at the refused school so I will have 2 primary children in two different schools at that point (primary will go to year 6 from 2012).

1. On 3 days Grandma will be doing school run. She has Fibromyalgia which causes severe muscle aches. She can manage 5 mins to the refused school but cannot yomp 40 mins across town to the allocated. We have a letter from her doctor supporting this.

1. The PAN was set over 5 years ago. Since then the school has had an extension giving more room to the office and early years classrooms.

I feel like this all sounds reasonable. I have no concerns about the allocated school. It looks great (so I know I am luckier than many) but for all of the reasons above really hope I can be successful at appeal.

I was hoping for any views/ advice on the strength of these arguments or if any are week/ irrelevant and of no importance to the panel. Any tips about the appeal itself would be great.

Many Thanks

I don't understand what you are saying in point 2 - you say your daughter can walk alone, but at the same time she'll be 40 minutes early? If she can walk it alone, then why wouldn't she set off at the proper time to arrive there?

Point 3 - the obvious answer would be to put your youngest into the same school as DS1.

Point 4 - if your daughter can walk alone, why would your mother have to go 40 minutes to collect her?

I've no idea about PANs or how rigid they are, but your logic on the practicalities of the school run does not come across as a convincing argument for why an exception should be made.

Tbh this does not seem like grounds for appeal to me.

In our town many infants schools do not have junior schools attached, which means that any parent with more than one child will at some stage be juggling two schools.

Childminders are a common option. Or giving the older child a key.

You can always try, but ime they do not usually take parents' logistics into account. After all, they would then need to give places to all those children whose parents needed to get to work on a certain time, or to their uni courses, or whatever.

Hi muminscotland

Thank you

point 2 - My daughter (age 9) has been given the school five minutes away. She is old enough to walk alone but not old enough to be left alone at home alone and then to let herself out and lock up, whilst we set off to the primary school 40 minutes away. So she would have to leave at the same time as us and arrive at school 5 mins later.

point 4 - Likewise my mother in law would not have to go 40 minutes for her (on the days that I work) but for my 6 year old. (meanwhile my daughter has to wait outside school/ or arrive home alone and wait for me/ mother in law to arrive back 40 mins later.)

point 3 - yes I could do that but as my youngest will be at primary for 7 years it seems to make sense for him to be at the one 5 mins round the corner rather than a 40 min walk away.

As I said I know there are people with horror stories about schools etc but this is my situation and as I said if I don't win then we will have to make things work. However, if the school has room which it appears to I would rather try to win this appeal.

Are you in England? If so a PAN of 36 is unusual. That would give 108 children in Reception, Y1 and Y2 necessitating 3 mixed classes to comply with infant class size regulations.

With a PAN of 36 and 5 year groups, the school's capacity is presumably 180. If that is the case, the fact that they are below capacity is worth talking about, as is the fact that they plan to mix year groups as this all tends to suggest that they may be able to take your child without serious problems. The fact they have been over PAN previously is presumably as a result of successful appeals so, although it may be worth mentioning, it isn't necessarily persuasive.

I'm afraid your points 2, 3 and 4 are unlikely to help. Appeal panels regularly come across parents complaining about transport difficulties, etc. as a result of having children in different schools. In most cases they cannot use this as a basis for allowing the appeal. You may be lucky and get a panel that is sympathetic to Grandma's condition but I wouldn't hold my breath. The panel may simply decide that this isn't relevant and that it is up to you to make appropriate arrangements.

If the school has added new buildings since the capacity was set it is worth bringing that up as it helps to show that the school can cope with additional children. I would suggest asking the LA to confirm the calculated net capacity and the agreed capacity of the school and when these were set. The calculated capacity should be a range such as 162-180. If the agreed capacity is at the bottom of the range and/or the capacity was set before the new building that will help your case.

The main weakness in your case is that the information you've got may weaken the LA's case but there is nothing here that gives the panel a reason to admit. You may show that admitting your child won't cause much prejudice to the school but you are unlikely to get the panel to decide that it won't cause any prejudice. You therefore need to think about things the preferred school can provide your daughter which are missing from the allocated school and which you can advance as showing that your daughter's education will suffer if she doesn't go to your preferred school. Are there, for example, after school clubs at your preferred school that would benefit your daughter?

Hi Cory

I understand your point about panels not taking logistics into account as there are loads of people juggling many things. Do many people use and pay for childminders just to get two youngish children to two different schools even if they are not at work? This seems really unfair if you can't afford that. I think it is illegal to leave a 9 year old at home alone with a key isn't it?

I guess I was thinking that my main grounds for appeal was the numbers thing and the fact that the school has had more children before so seemingly could accommodate one more. The other points which i understand are just to do with personal circumstances I thought might be worth bringing up and depending on the panel might have some influence.

Many Thanks for your comments.

Hi Prh47bridge

Thank you for your advice re my son.

Yes it is in England. There is a reception of 25, Yr 1/2 of 28, Yr1/2 or 30, Yr2/3 of 28 and 2 Yr 3/4 of 32.

I will ask the LEA for the net capacity. I take all of you points about some of these points probably not being important to the panel and will look at after school clubs etc.

Is it at all relevant that we are so close to the refused school ? - I can see it form our house.

Thanks

Karen

OOps I meant to say reception/Yr1 of 28

Hi Karen

The distance to the refused school is only really relevant if you are suggesting that a mistake has been made, which is unlikely in your circumstances. It should be in the LA's evidence to the appeal anyway. They normally include a map showing where your house and both schools (the one refused and the one allocated) are located.

Having said that, mentioning that you want this school because it is your local school and you can see it from your house won't do any harm. I'd certainly throw it into the mix but don't make it the major part of your case. I'm afraid it doesn't give the panel a reason to admit your son.

Hi,

not illegal to leave 9yo at home alone but agree that it might be unwise to do so if she is not good at organising herself (I frequently left ds alone in the afternoons last year when he was that age, but have to admit I would not have expected old fluffybrains to get to school on time without supervision)

but yes, we pay a childminder for half an hour in the morning just to get ds to school, as I have to be at home to help his sister into the disabled taxi

as prh says, you can always mention the logistics, but they would not be a reason

I have two children of different ages at different schools far away from each other and have to manage. Never dreamt it would be grounds for appeal. We juggle it between us and pay for childcare. Tis life I thought.

melia, while I agree with most of the opinions you have received here, can I just say that your Point 5 is actually the crucial one.

If you can prove that the PAN was set before building extensions and it hasn?t been altered since those extensions were completed, that is absolutely grounds for appeal. I have a close family friend who won a (secondary) appeal on exactly those grounds about 4 years ago.

She went and measured (honestly!) the extensions and provided precise figures and how they should be taken into account. The school fought it initially but quickly caved. HTH

Hi

Thank you all. Never for one minute thought that 2 schools being apart was grounds for appeal alone. Of course I realise that this is the case for many.

However, as I do not think that the school is 'full' as there are 174 on roll this year as opposed to 180 in other years and there is a year 2 class with 28 and one with 30, I thought it may have some bearing with some panels. Also the school has had an extension since the PAN was set.

I thought that these would be my strongest grounds for appeal but included the other information to give a fuller picture. Is everyone suggesting that I don't mention these factors at all?

I appealed because I felt it would be silly not to at least try and gain a place at my local school. As I said the school offered is very nice but in the (very close) neighbouring town, but of course I would prefer it if my son could go to the same school as the other children who live in the village where we are going to live.

Many Thanks

Melia,
This is a bit of a messy situation because the first school will migrate to being a primary school in 2012. I guess at that point it will become a 1 form entry primary school.

As such the current PAN of 36 is going to cause some problems in 2012 for the school. In effect they are going to have year classes of 36 as the current cohorts move up through the school. As you have no appeal date yet you presumably do not have the LA case against admission.

If I was making the LA case I would strongly make the point about transition, as no panel is going to want to increase a class of 36! That will in effect blow your case out of the water if they do use that arguement. Sorry.

However LAs are not always as on the ball as they should be in such matters, so PRH's comments are valid if they do not mention the transition to primary school. It maybe best to wait and see what the LA case says and then we can suggest if there are any others ideas.

I would mention that as there is a yr2/3 class with 28 in it that the infant class size regs will not be breached by the addition of one more pupil. It just pushes the panel towards being positive about the idea that we can admit because we don't have to consider the ICS Regs.

To me the weakest part of your case is your 9 year old daughter - the panel will think it is your responsibility to organise getting her to school. The use of grannie as adult taking would be stronger if it was everyday, but still not very convincing as per PRH's comments. Strongest parts are the extra capacity, the fact that the classroom can easily take 30 but only 28 in it and that they have had had more in the past - 32 in 2 classes now.

You need to talk about why you will be sending youngest to the school - 5 minutes walk is obvious but look for out of school clubs etc that you can mention and say you really would like your year 2 son to have the benefit of these as well. For the same reasons as above with 9 year old do not talk about 2 places at once, it will not be a positive it will detract from the case.

Thank you admission. The school will increase it's PAN to 45 when it becomes a primary and relocate to the current middle school building in 2012. Year 7/8/9 will at that point move up to the reconfigured high school. I have found consultation documents that suggest it is increasing to 45 from 2011 in the current building - have asked admissions if this is the case - don't know if this helps or hinders me if this is true?

Thanks for your advice. I understand what you are saying about my daughter. I realise it is no different to many people's situation. If we were not moving to a new area I would have lots of friends that I could arrange school pickups with (as you do!) and it would be less of a problem. After a while I would hope to have a similar situation at our new house (it is rare that I only take/ collect my own children!). However, I don't think that there will be many, if any who have children at the two schools that I have been offered as looking at the records there were only 36 applications for reception when my son's year group joined and the middle school is not full. I guess most people have their children in the close by schools. But of course if we have to we will have to find a solution and probably not a concern of the appeal panel. So you think it is just better not to mention this?

In terms of my son - I guess my problem is that I have no worries about the offered school (aware this is not really a 'problem' and that I am lucky in this respect) - It would just be better I think for him to go to school with the children that live in the village rather than in the town up the road. If I had not found out about the class of the 28, year groups that have gone to 37/38 and the extension I would probably not have appealed and been willing to accept that unfortunately the school is full. Is it a problem that I might be able to prove that the school is not 'full' and could take another without prejudice?

Many Thanks for all of your assistance.

Sorry meant to say at the end is it likely to be a problem if I can ONLY prove the school could take another but not necessarily prove that there will be harm to my son (other than the long walk/local children going to the school) if he doesn't attend. I guess it is best if I can make a good case for both.

If you can convince the panel that there will be absolutely no problems for the school in taking an extra child you will win your appeal. However, that is difficult to achieve. You may think you have shown that there won't be any problems for the school but that doesn't mean the panel will agree. Most panels will think that there will be some prejudice to the school in admitting a child over PAN even if it isn't very much.

Personally, however certain I was that I could show there wouldn't be any problems in admitting a child, I would be uncomfortable going into an appeal without being able to give the panel a positive reason to admit beyond it being the nearest school. I would still give it my best shot, though.

By the way, if you can prove that the capacity has not been increased since the extension I would say that is your best shot at convincing the appeal panel that admitting your child won't cause prejudice to the school. Even with that, though, I would still prefer to go into the appeal with a reason to admit that I could give the panel.

Thank you. I'll get working on it.

melia, I thought I'd tell you what I won an appeal on for my son about 3 years ago. I put together a pack that I photocopied for all members of the appeal hearing that mentioned the net capacity figure and also that the school had exceeded an intake of 30 in the class on a number of years so basically they'd coped before - sorry I can't remember all the details of how it all worked. I also mentioned that the attendance figure had never exceeded 95% so basically there were 5% fewer children at the school in any one day. I too had a logistical problem in that there was no convenient public transport (printed off timetables as part of the pack) and that it would take 25 minutes to walk. However, I said it also meant a 25 minute walk back home for me and I needed to start work at 9am. I would also have to do this in the afternoon and couldn't take the time off in which case my mother would have to pick him up which meant a train ride and a 40 minute walk either way for her. I also said that the offered school didn't provide provision for two clubs he was interested in (and had been doing for a number of years) - a language as well as a musical instrument, which the school I was appealing to did. I also mentioned that we were in the catchment for a particular high school and that it would mean my son starting all over again, having to get to meet new people two years later when he got to high school if we didn't get the primary we wanted so he move up with his peers. I got a letter from my MP supporting me for the reasons above. I would have thought you have a good case. I paid John Chard of School Appeals company £150 one off fee for unlimited advice and help with the statement. I honestly think he helped and actually mentioned things that I hadn't thought of such as the attendance figures. I don't know how it works but I felt all the individual reasons put together were what won me the case. Good luck.

Interesting Tabliope.

There shouldn't have been any need for you to photocopy stuff for the members of the panel. If you submit it to the clerk beforehand he/she will make sure the panel receive copies.

Of the points in your case, the fact that the school only had 95% attendance maximum and the transport difficulties should not have swayed the panel, nor should the letter from your MP.

The most compelling part of your case was the clubs offered by the preferred school that were not available at the offered school. I suspect that is the bit that helped you win your appeal.

prh47bridge - no I don't think it was just the clubs. In fact, I think that was very minor. I think it was actually more the attendance figures - going by the questions the appeal board asked about that. The HT said to me after that she knew I'd win as I had such a good case with lots of different points. Their argument was that they were full to capacity when in fact they only had 95% there on any given day - both the HT and LEA rep looked like they'd given up at that point. You have to prove that the inclusion of your child won't detrimentally harm the education of the other children there - my DS doing two clubs that weren't being provided at the offered school isn't enough in itself to offer me a place at the preferred school - particularly if his inclusion would have affected the education of the children at the preferred school.

Attendance figures should not be taken into consideration and appeal panels are told not to take that into consideration at training. So if they did take what John Chard suggested then they were acting incorrectly.

Personnally I would have thought the key issue in your appeal would have been a combination of the clubs - based on actual facts rather than wishes and the facts, including the timetable (like that!) of the transport difficulties. But then I wasn't on the panel and nobody but the panel and the clerk know what the deciding factor was.

Melia,
Definitely push to find out whether the admission number will be 45 for this next year - it will be in the admission books for sept 2011 which will be out now. If this is correct then this should be your number one reason. The building will not change but they are quite happy to admit to 45 in reception for next September. OK the LA will argue that the PAN for your year group is 36 and they should abide by that, but most panels will take the view that an increase to 45 means all year groups can take that, especially given that the school will be moving the year after.

Even if the PAN is staying at 36 there is a viable arguement that given that the school is moving in 2012 and then the PAN will be 45 that they should admit now.

Also the LA are not going to mention the proposed changes at all from what you have said. If they do they will simply shoot themselves in the foot because of above.

Tabliope, thank you for your help. There seem to be some similarities between your case and mine. It seems like a panel may be sympathetic to transport/logistics but that it cannot be a sole reason to admit from what you, admissions and prh47bridge have told me? I appreciate all of you taking time to offer your experience and advice.

Admission, I have just looked at the books for 2011/2012 and unfortunately the PAN is still 36. With school reorganisation in Suffolk it is still the plan to relocate, increase the PAN to 45 and the school total to 315 in 2012. It also says that 36 was the number of applications last year so I think I am right in guessing that most of families in the village who want children in the neighbouring primary/middle schools have been able to achieve that and that the children living around, who I would like my son to be able to make friends with will go to the refused local school.

So if the PAN is not due to change until 2012 (when my youngest will start reception) what is the 'viable argument to admit now'? - I'm guessing that you mean that I could argue that with the class of 28, the roll of 174, extension and the extra space from 2012 there will be no 'prejudice' to other students in neither the short or long term. Also could I argue that it is very likely that my son would be able to join the school in 2012 (at the latest - presuming we would be high on a waiting list with proximity to school) if I wanted him and his brother joining reception in the same (5 mins walk away) school. This would mean him having to settle in again so it would be better for him to admit now into the class of 28?

Many Thanks once again