mid year appeal - grateful for advice

[melia]

Hi

We are due to move in about 4 weeks. My daughter has been given a place in Yr 5 at the middle school 5 mins walk away. My son has been refused a place in neighbouring primary as year 2 is 'full'. He has been given a place at a very nice school forty minutes walk away. I am awaiting an appeal date. My grounds for appeal are

1. The PAN is 36 (5 year groups) and there are 36 in Yr 2 but in three of the last five years there have been year groups of 37 and 38. The total number on roll is 174 but in the past five years there have been 176, 178 and 180. One of the year 2/3 classes has 28 children and the other year 1/2 class has 30. Current year 3 is quite small and has only 31 and will be mixed with the current year 2 to form 2 classes next year. All of this to me suggests that the school is not 'full' and can function with another child 'without prejudice'.

1. The allocated schools for my daughter and son start at the same time and I do not have a car. My daughter can walk alone but we would all have to set off at 8.05 for us to reach the allocated primary on time. My daughter would arrive alone at an empty middle school at 8.10 - 40 mins before it starts. I do not feel happy about this and feel it is unreasonable.

1. From Sept 2012 my youngest son will start in reception at the refused school so I will have 2 primary children in two different schools at that point (primary will go to year 6 from 2012).

1. On 3 days Grandma will be doing school run. She has Fibromyalgia which causes severe muscle aches. She can manage 5 mins to the refused school but cannot yomp 40 mins across town to the allocated. We have a letter from her doctor supporting this.

1. The PAN was set over 5 years ago. Since then the school has had an extension giving more room to the office and early years classrooms.

I feel like this all sounds reasonable. I have no concerns about the allocated school. It looks great (so I know I am luckier than many) but for all of the reasons above really hope I can be successful at appeal.

I was hoping for any views/ advice on the strength of these arguments or if any are week/ irrelevant and of no importance to the panel. Any tips about the appeal itself would be great.

Many Thanks

All of that is a pretty good argument. There are no guarantees, of course. It depends on how the panel you get views the evidence. But I would hope you can persuade the panel that there will be little or no prejudice to the school in admitting your son.

Good luck.

Yes go with all of it.
I would start off by saying that having moved to the village that you believe that it is vitaly important for your son to make friends in the village by going to the local school. I would then say that the allocated school is too far away to realistical achieve this. You have nothing against the school offered but the distance. There are however some specific reasons why the local school is actually better for my child, these being >>>.> (find the clubs, football etc).
Then would be the time to argue that there is only 28 in one of the classes whereas the other for the year group has 30 and that the panel could admit because infant class size regs are not pertenant to this appeal. Then put in about the extension and anything else you can find on this, followed by the fact that the school will have a PAN of 45 in just over a year's time ( not 2012 that sounds a long time away) following the re-organisation and that will also be the point at which your younger son will join the school.
As a wellknown animal says simples (smile)

Once more many many thanks for all of your time and effort. I was feeling a little down with the 'give the 9 year old a key' and leave them to it argument but feeling like I can at least try and win an appeal now. Wish that all children could have access to a good local state school, hopefully that many of them could walk to. It would save all of this silliness and 'choice' which in reality very few ordinary people really appear to have.

THANK YOU.

Best of luck. Let's us know if you win. I think you've got a case. I don't think any of us know for sure what sways a panel so mention it all.

Hi admissions/ prh47bridge

Have an appeal date now for the 14th and have just found out some more information - not sure if it's disastrous or good news.

As I said before the PAN is going to 45 in 2012 and the school is moving to the middle school site. I have just been told by the very helpful receptionist at the school that in preparation for this the current year 4 (the top year) at the primary will not be leaving the school this summer so for the year 2011-2012 the school will have an extra year group (still PAN 36) at the current site. Apparently they are planning to use the SEN room and a prefab which is currently being used by the preschool (not formally part of the school) for the extra space until the whole school moves in 2012. Does this prove that the site is big enough to take an extra pupil now or that they are already going to be pushed for space in 2011 and therefore should not have to admit my son?

Also found out the extension that I spoke about before is 3 years old but the PAN has been set at 36 since well before that. Finding out the net capacity is like getting blood out of a stone - apparently the person that has that info at admissions is on holiday. They have assured me that they will let me know before my appeal. I might ring tomorrow and be more persistent.

Many Thanks
Karen

We really need to know the net capacity and when it was set. If it was set before the extension was built you can make the case that it doesn't reflect the current capacity of the school. The other thing we need to know is what the LA say about all this in their written submission to the appeal.

Both of the things you say are true. This does suggest the site is big enough to handle an additional pupil this year. It also suggests that they may be pushed for space in 2011/2, although they will obviously be ok again in September 2012 as that is when the PAN goes up to 45.

If the LA don't mention the plans for next year in their written submission, I'd probably steer clear of it myself and stick to the outline case Admission gave in her last post.

prh, admission

I now have the LA case. First some details that were missing before. The net capacity is 180 (min 150- max180) and was set before the extension. The number on roll is 175. Pan of 36 was set before extension (which OFSTED of 2008 describes as 'major building work').

The LA case (and some info that they include which you might find helpful):

1. Yr 4 has 38 only due to 2 exceptional admissions.

1. They argue that 6 classes occupy the six teaching spaces so no suitable place for an extra class - (But they don't need one if my son joins as he would be able to join the class of 28?). There are 7.48 full time teachers inc acting head.

1. 'The hall has been identified as being too small for school - 100sq m and should be 150 sq m. The admission of further pupils will exacerbate and make space more cramped' (but are going to accept an extra year group next year despite this?)

1. 'The class of 28 is a mixed key stage class. Such a large class creates difficulties for teaching staff in terms of curriculum and planning. The other mixed year group classes have 30 and 32 in them' - (seems to contradict itself? - 28 is not large, teachers of 30 and 32 seem to manage)

1. School will retain yr 5 pupils in 2011 and yr 6 in 2012 when it will relocate to mid school site. 'There is no scope in current building to accommodate an additional year group so we are developing plans to relocate the pre school (which is independent but uses a mobile on the primary site) into the mid school in 2011. This will allow the primary school to use the pre school mobile. This mobile classroom is not sufficient for a class of 38 yr 5 so there will be a mixed class of 30 yr 4 and 5 in that space. A smaller class of yr 5 will be taught in the SEN/ food tech room. The remainder of kS2 will be taught in a mixed yr 3/4 class (I assume that there must be some yr 3 in a yr2/3 class as well). It will no longer be possible to teach food tech during the day and SEN/ speech and language groups will only have the library to work in. The very limited space throughout the school will put sig pressure on the staff to ensure progress and learning. One further admission will cause prejudice to the children already in the school'. - sorry this is a bit long but didn't want to miss anything that you might see as important. (It seems to me that there is scope in the current building to accommodate an extra year group as that is exactly what they are doing? Do many primaries have a dedicated food tech room? Is it strange to teach SEN/ language int he library - seems quite appropriate? In any case these classroom changes are going ahead regardless of whether they accept my son - so are their arguments even relevant?

Do you think our previous thoughts about admitting now as the school is clearly large enough to accommodate 36 more in Sept still stand? Does the schools case seem strong to you?

Many Thanks

Karen

Melia,
Does not look anything but a fairly standard type statement from the LA to me, with a bit about future plans. I will look at it in more detail tomorrow,

My immediate thoughts:

As we've discussed previously, the fact that the capacity and admission number were set before the recent extension is definitely worth raising. That suggests that the current capacity and admission number are not a fair reflection of the school.

I agree that adding your son will not require an extra class so I don't think the lack of an extra teaching space for one is an issue. If it were me I would probably ask the LA's representative a pointed question about this.

One more child is not going to make the hall significantly more cramped than it already is and in any case, as you say, they are going to have an extra year group next year.

They are obviously trying to make the case that a mixed key stage class (presumably Y2/Y3) is more demanding than a mixed year class within a key stage. I would push them on that one and see if they can justify it, especially given that some schools have mixed key stage classes of up to 30 children.

Regarding your point 5, what they are really saying is that there is no room for another year group unless they relocate the pre-school. They are clearly trying to suggest that the school will be overcrowded next year and therefore adding your son will make it worse.

I've no idea what the situation is nationally but I can't think of any primary schools in my area with a dedicated food tech room.

As you say, the classroom changes are going ahead regardless of whether or not your son is admitted. Make sure the panel understands that.

As Admission says, this looks like a fairly standard statement. I think the stuff we've talked about previously will weaken their case. As they are bringing up the change next year you are clearly going to have to talk about that, though. There are no guarantees - it all depends on what the panel you get thinks of it. But I don't see anything here that suggests a change of tack is needed.

You might need to cite the Freedom of Information Act. I had to use it when the school initially refused to give me the information I needed. They do have 20 working days to reply from when the request was received but it may hurry things up if you bring it up.

Find out what the sizes of the classrooms are. The DSCF have guidelines on space per child and you may be able to demonstrate that even with one more child, they won't be in breach of those guidelines.

And I know you're not supposed to say anything bad about the allocated school and talk about the positive reasons you want the school you're appealing to. However, in the letter rejecting my appeal, one of the reasons was because I hadn't said anything negative about the allocated school!

Also, look at the SATS for the bigger classes (the school can give you KS1 results). See if you can show that being in a bigger class has no correlation with results, i.e. the school can handle a bigger class

petelly - The OP doesn't need to cite the Freedom of Information Act. The LA is required to provide all the information reasonably requested for the appeal. If they do not do so that is grounds for overturning any decision made by the appeal panel. And if I received a decision letter where one of the reasons given was that I didn't say anything negative about the allocated school I would immediately refer that to the LGO. You have to justify why the preferred school is the right one for your child but you don't have to say bad things about the allocated school. Did your decision letter actually say that or did it say that you hadn't shown that your child's education would be prejudiced by going to the allocated school rather than the preferred school?

prh47

In my experience there's a huge difference between what should happen and what actually does.

I did quote the admissions code where the admissions authority is required to supply the information I required. I was told that I could not have the information I needed.

The letter specifically said 'You admitted that there were no problems with bullying and racism at the allocated school' as part of the reason for rejecting our request.

I was considering turning to the LGO, not least because of being reduced to tears by the chair of the panel. However, things had become so unpleasant and we were so disappointed by the behaviour of the headteacher of the school (deliberately with-holding information - to the point of tippexing out class sizes on the school classroom plan that was sent to us the night before the appeal!!) that we decided we no longer wished for our daughter to go there.

I just want the OP to be aware, as she already is due to previous experience, that these appeals proceedings do not always run as they should do.

Melia,
Having looked at the information supplied I would agree with everything that PRH has said.
The comment about having 38 in year 4 is interesting because they say exceptional admissions. Normally that means that the school / LA admitted the two pupils not via an appeal process. so it might be worth pushing the LA presenting officer to elaborate on the reasons why the two were given places. It is highly unlikely that you will be told the reasons - they should not - but they probably indicate that there were specific reasons why they had to be admitted. That is then your opportunity to ask why if the LA can admit two to that year group they believe that they cannot admit to year 2 which only has 36. It weakens the case in the eyes of the panel.
The LA is attempting to make the school full by painting a difficult picture in 2011. I would ask the question as to whether the mobile and the food tech area are currently in the net capacity and therefore the PAN. The answer has got to be no and so you can simply then ask the question as to how this information about 2011 is relevant as they have plenty of space for the extra pupils and therefore space for 1 extra now, especially given that the stated net capacity is old and out of date.

Thank you all. Lots to ponder here as I plan my argument. I'll let you know how I got on.

Admission - just to clarify - when you say that the food tech room and the mobile are not currently in the net capacity why is this? Is the net capacity only based on rooms that are currently used as permanent teaching rooms? If those rooms existed when the net capacity was set would they not have been taken into account when setting 150-180- it's just that the school has chosen to use them other than as permanent classrooms? I can see that there must be plenty of room or it would not have been allowed to keep an extra year group.

I thought that exceptional circumstances was perhaps looked after or SEN children that would have to be admitted without appeal? (my son is neither)

Many Thanks

Karen

Schools can opt to not count certain rooms in the net capacity calculation. Rooms used for SEN or food tech which are not used all the time would normally not be counted. The mobile is used for the nursery, which will not be counted in the net capacity as it is not in the required school years (reception to y4 for your school).

Primary schools also tend to only count the main teaching rooms as it stops there being a silly PAN like 32 when schools cannot have more than 30 in an infant class.

You may be right that the exceptional refers to LAC or SEN children. However years of appeals has taught me that it is always best to ask. It would not be unknown for a head to have added a couple of pupils as they had siblings in the school or something similar, even though it is supposedly not to happen!

Thank you admission/prh. Whether my appeal is successful or not I am very grateful for all of the advice that has been offered on here. You have really helped me to be clear on the things that I should focus on and the things that are probably peripheral. Many Thanks.

Karen

Appeal lost I'm afraid. Letter says that the panel judged there to be severe prejudice to the school because of the changes next year - they said that the extra year group presents difficulties in term of planning and accommodation. Without this they had concluded potential prejudice. Feel a bit cross that admitting my son would only be potential prejudice - they asked lots of questions about the class of 28 etc. The severe prejudice - which I guess I had little chance of outweighing with prejudice to my son - seems to me to have been caused by the decision to allow an extra year group next year rather than what one extra in Yr 2 would cause. They did say that they agreed there would be prejudice to my son by not being able to attend the local school and that they had sympathy with the family circumstances (probably a standard response?) but that it wouldn't outweigh the severe prejudice to the school.

Disappointed of course but trying to be upbeat to my son about what a great school the other one is! Now I guess I just have to keep in contact with the school - there is no waiting list - and hope that they will let me know when a place becomes available. Any advice here. As youngest son will join the school in 2012 I will have to move the eldest again because it will be impossible to have them both at different primaries. I know that I could send the youngest to the same school as the eldest but it would seem odd to send him 40 mins rather than 5 mins for 7 years.

Many thanks for your advice - I wish you'd been on the panel.

Karen

That's a shame. Sorry you lost. Hope a place comes up for your older DS over the next year. I think he's young enough for the transition. What a pain though.

Sorry to hear your news.
The LA is responsible for now admitting to all schools. I would write to the LA and copy in the school head teacher formally asking to be on the waiting list for your son, even if they say there is no waiting lists.
By doing so you put a date in writing from which you expected to be advised if a place came up. Personally I think the new system is nuts because there is no way that the LA can keep track of all people who want a place at all schools. They will have to go back to the school to ask them when each person applies.
I would try and cultivate a couple of friends who have children in that year group so that you hopefully get to hear of any pupil who might be leaving. At which point it is straight onto the LA to ask for the place.
It would also be useful to try and get friendly with the school office staff. Don't haunt them but just popping in a couple of times a term to ask how things are going and is there a space will just keep your name at the front of their mind.

Thank you admission/ tabliope.

That's disappointing. Hope you manage to get a place soon.