How many of your children are taught by unqualified people?

[gapbear]

Just that really.

A lot of schools have stopped getting (qualified) supply teachers in to cover teachers' non-contact time. Instead they get TAs to cover the class, or in secondary schools, 'Cover Supervisors'. It's possible some of them have teaching qualifications, but the vast majority don't.

I am unhappy at the thought of my children having a couple of hours a week with someone who does not hold a teaching qualification.

I applied for a job as a TA at a secondary school in the North East a couple of years ago. I have no teaching qualifications at all, nor had I any experience.

I was asked to describe how I would plan (!) a term's teaching 'in the absence of the teacher', following the lesson plans given by another member of staff.

Scarily enough, I was told I didn't get the job, not because I was under-qualified (they didn't think I was!), but because I seemed 'lacking in confidence'.

I wonder how common this experience is - the school clearly wanted to use unqualified people as regular teachers and saw nothing wrong with it.

Crew - your "it's bad form to mention schools" thing is bullshit. You have no evidence of your bizarre assertion that teachers are not necessary and that "schools" are operating without them.

tangerinecat's earlier post explains brilliantly why your ridiculous idea would not work.

Feenie - I think you misunderstood me earlier on. My DTDs went to a fabulous nursery, and I would never undermine the excellent work the staff there did with them. However, not one member of staff had a teaching qualification - it isn't deemed necessary, and nursery staff have different qualfications anyway. My point, though I own I made it badly, is that my children didn't receive a poorer standard of care or education because there was no teacher there. The teacher in a school nursery is there, presumably, as the person "in charge" of the nursery, and to run it in line with school policy. Therefore, it's not necessary for nursery children to be "taught" by someone with a teaching qualification - private nurseries don't need to have that, and the education received by children is no worse.

I didn't know that. Thank you!

Actually as far as "hiding away" goes, I went to a PTA meeting at DS1's new secondary school last week (an event open to any parent!) the head introduced with pride a chap who was a CS at the school.

I tell the students I am a teacher by the way. Apologies to any teachers who are offended by that (tho I am sure none are). It just seems the best way to go about things - I want them to give me the same respect and attention they would a teacher.

Yes, supply CSs - ah I was one of those too. It was rather difficult That's why I am glad our school has CS staff in place.

BTW a supply teacher costs as much as £200 per day. For a bit less than two days' worth you get me all week

Clary - Whilst some Supply Teachers may cost £200 a day, no supply teacher gets paid that amount indeed as a result of schools using Cover Supervisors the daily rate for many supply teachers is probably nearer to £100 a day. I hardly think £100 a day is excessive for someone who has spent four years training.

With a Supply you only actually pay them when you need them, how many schools are currently paying dozens of Cover Supervisors to be in school even though no classes need covering.

Crew I do think you are trying to be controversial.

But the person doing the final planning needs to be the person in the classroom. If all there was to my job was babysitting while students worked to ready made schemes of work why have I just finished a 17 hour day? While mantaining a sense of humour, I take my job very seriously as do most of the people I work with. Having said that before I entered teaching I had no idea of what went into a lesson, so I can understand why people may hold your views.

I do think in primary schools that children seem to spend a lot of time with unqualified staff, as a secondary teacher I find it shocking. I am not sure if that is just my dd, her school is quite crap, or if it is all primaries.

I do agree with crew( if it was her that said it) that there are schools that run with many non teaching staff doing teaching jobs long term. That does not mean they do not need teachers.

Well our school pays as much as £200 a day.

Of course the supply teacher doesn't get that much! The agency gets lots I am sure.

I have no problem with a reasonable day rate for a highly trained professional; but I still maintain a CS is a better value option, certainly in a big school.

Ours has well over 100 staff and there is someone off (poorly, on a course, etc) most days. We have 4 full time CSs and we are usually pretty busy.

'Would you expect your Doctor or Bank Manager to shoehorn meetings into his/her lunch break or before work times? No. So why the hell should teachers?'

ROFL. In the light of the above statement, can I ask if you consider teaching to be genuinely a profession?

Discuss

Of course the person doing the planning doesn't have to be the person in the classroom or we wouldn't have supply teachers or cover supervisors.

Plenty of teachers download lessons from the Internet. I don't suppose they download the authors too.

It's increasingly obvious that the detractors of the use of cover supervisors are foul mouthed semi-literates who are being replaced by more professional people.

Quattro most teachers do schedule meetings in their lunch times, breaks or after work tbh. PLease do not judge us all by the postings of one teacher.

Crew it depends if you want a quality education for your children. If you want the best you need teachers in the room. I have nothing against cover supervisors, ours are very good and when a teacher cannot be in a room they are good enough. I would prefer to see a teacher in the room, especially a subject specialist, which is why I would always volunteer for a cover if I am available and it is my subject.

I download resources from the internet, however it is very rare something does not need adapting for my class.

I am neither foul mouther or semi literate,I am however very tired. I suspect you are on a wind up mission. I hope you have enjoyed it.

Oh FFS, I'm being slammed as unprofessional for attending a meeting organised by my boss that was not in my (or her) lunchbreak. Judgypants digging in much?

Crew - I have never downloaded a lesson plan from the internet. I prefer to write my own, on the grounds that I'll be delivering the lesson.

BTW, if I'm arranging meetings, I do it in my free periods etc as much as is possible. But the one I mentioned was organised by someone else and I had to attend.

And I consider teaching to be a profession. It's very clear though that a lot of others don't. In fact rather a large number of MNers seem to think of their DC's teachers as servants.

Teaching IS a profession. Its just such a pity that years of government intervention and meddling has reduced us to, essentially, 'yes' men.

It is also a great pity that a lot of parents now view schooling as some sort of extended babysitting service - the moans we have to put up with if the school has to close for a day or two because of weather or whatever....(remember, these are just the sort of parents who would drag us through the courts if their wee little Jonny fell over and broke his arm at school due to snow/ice....)

either you value education or you don't. If you value it then you value the people trying, often against major odds, to deliver it. If you don't then a school simply becomes a useful place to plonk your kids and keep them entertained.

I have 2 children and I have no qualifications at all in childcare.

I also help them with their homework and I have not one single qualification in teaching.

They are both autistic and I have no qualifications in that area either.

I medicate them (painkillers, cough mixture, etc) and put plasters or bandages as required and I have no medical qualifications .

Someone should alert social services.

qualifications are not the be all and end all. There are other ways to be good at what you do.

Wow.

Maybe this has been said already, no time to read it all as DD is wrecking the living room but you are not allowed in front of a class in Scotland if you do not have a degree and a teaching qualification and are registered with the GTCS!

We are not even allowed to leave the classroom support staff while we nip to the photocopier!

In fact, someone I know hadn't realised they hadn't paid their GTC fee for the year (as they had been on mat leave and it usually comes off at source) and when this was discovered, it was decided another member of the teaching staff would have to sit in with the classes while the teacher taught as usual until the fee was processed!

When I was at secondary school and in the 5th year some of the teachers were on strike - that meant that we prefects 'took' lessons (work had already been set by the teacher)- it 'worked' well -no parents complained (except some 5th year parents ).

As a trainee nursery nurse the teacher I was training under became violently sick with no cover available myself and the TA 'coped' .....are we becoming moaners as the years drag on?

Indeed, qualifications are not the be and end all.

I have a few science Highers and I did a social history course on demography at university, so I've learned a bit about certain infectious diseases.

I have also been ill a few times in my life and had a 3 day hospital stay after having DD.

Anyone want me as their doctor?

This would be true if all schools were using CS's according to the guidelines. They are not.

Sorry, I was replying to Clary. (New user!)

Oh dear, "support me or you're on a wind up mission." Don't you see how much of a wimp you are?

No wonder they prefer professional, competent and confident cover supervisors to wimpy, incompetent supply teachers who complain that a different opinion is a wind up.

There must be teachers. There must be people to do the strategic work that teaching requires but that doesn't mean that this has to extend to the classroom for every single lesson.
What cover supervisors are demonstrating is that using less qualified/expensive people to do the delivery makes very little difference to learning outcomes.
So schools are increasingly mixing and matching. Teachers plan and assess and monitor what is happening in the classroom. Less expensive people do most of the delivery.
People have been using a medical example. To turn that on its head, doctors have to do the initial examination and prescribing, but they don't have to take blood, give injections or take blood pressures every single time. They employ competent professionals who they monitor.

The mere fact that you think being in the classroom means nothing more than 'delivery' tells me everything I needed to know about cover supervising.

The school my DS attends isn't open regarding the use of CS's.

Their last Ofsted report mentioned that some classes over rely on the use of worksheets. I wondered at the time whether this has any correlation to the number of CS's used in school - worksheet = Supervision. Or whether this was just coincidental and they were noting that teachers themselves over rely on worksheets.