How many of your children are taught by unqualified people?

[gapbear]

Just that really.

A lot of schools have stopped getting (qualified) supply teachers in to cover teachers' non-contact time. Instead they get TAs to cover the class, or in secondary schools, 'Cover Supervisors'. It's possible some of them have teaching qualifications, but the vast majority don't.

I am unhappy at the thought of my children having a couple of hours a week with someone who does not hold a teaching qualification.

In my school they are called unqualified teachers.

Mrz I have worked in a state school that employed unqualified teachers and , wrongly in my opinion, they were not upfront about it.

I love the fiction that independent schools use loads of unqualified teachers. True, independent schools don't have to be full of qualified teachers, but I struggle to find one where anyone than say the swimming teacher is not a qualified teacher (and even then they usually have plenty of qualifications in their field as sports coaches).

Oops, OK I should have read past the first 15 posts...

mrz - not always as open as that IME though. I personally have no problem with specialists for such subjects, but I do think schools should be honest and open.

In DD's school it is very clear who is an actual teacher and who is a specialist instructor/tutor. Qualifications of staff are on the website, in the prospectus and on photos in the school entrance.

I agree Hula.,

As a music specialist, it really grates that schools assume it's a subject that requires no real skill and that any bod will do to teach cover it.

I'm very lucky to work where I do. Since having my children, I've worked part time. I remain valued as the head wants music led and taught effectively across the school (juniors). As well as that, we have a team of teachers employed to provide PPA cover. All of us are very experienced, and very expensive teachers! We know the children well, we know the school, and we know our jobs properly, so the curriculum is taught well at all times. As a parent, I would be very happy with this arrangement. As a teacher, I wonder why other schools cannot afford to stretch to this, or don't value the children's education enough to stretch to this ...

My son (yr 2) is 'taken' by a TA for a minimum of 2 afternoons a week. It is, in my opinion, less than ideal, and it annoys me that they won't invest more money in their teaching budget at his 'outstanding' school. However ... I would rather he had a good TA covering his class than a bad supply teacher.

cat64
"Why on earth should a class be left with a cover supervisor for a meeting ? Surely meetings take place before school, at luch break, during PPA time, or after school ?"

I know others have said this, but since your comment was directed at me...

1. Before school - I am dropping my own children off at school, ensuring my classroom is ready for Period 1, doing playgroud duty and/or attending staff briefings.
2. At luch time, I am having my lunch
3. PPA time is a statutory 10% of my timetable which CANNOT be taken for anything other than planning and preparation (check Schoolteachers Pay & Conditions document)

Would you expect your Doctor or Bank Manager to shoehorn meetings into his/her lunch break or before work times? No. So why the hell should teachers?

Also, as others have pointed out, in the bad old days when teachers were having to constantly cover for colleagues' absence, a "cover" lesson didn't really involve teaching - it was facilitating work and minding a class. I am qualified to teach Secondary English, Drama and Perfoming Arts. I cannot teach Science any better than a cover supervisor would.

And for what it's worth - was a supply teacher for a few months. It was hellish (London secondaries) Never knew where I would be from one day to the next, never knew any students or was given the chance to become familiar with a schools' systems or SLT. As soon as I was placed in a school with a long-term vacancy, I stayed put (for 4 years)

I am a Cover Supervisor! Actually, I'm in charge of a team of 10 cover supervisors. It really does work very well. At the moment, we haven't got much cover going on, but my ladies are in the classrooms with NQT's and new staff, supporting and advising about students we have grown to know and hate love! It's a tough London school and it has been proved last year, that one NQT stuck it out, because of the support of the Cover Supervisor.

OTOH, I am a parent and whenever DD tells me she's had a cover lesson, I grill her on how good or bad it was and for how many lessons she's had him!

I find it hard to believe that at a time when third world countries like Uganda and Zimbabwe are outlawing unqualified teachers, British schools are going the other way using Cover Supervisors to babysit children when these children really need teachers delivering lessons.

VeraD - you clearly don't have much of a clue about how schools work. Cover supervisors hardly "babysit", do they Maureen??

Er no! If only it was that easy!

Do people really think that TA are unqualified?

I agree that where possible meetings should not be arranged within teaching time. If that means you stay before or after school so be it. Obviously you don't want to do this everynight but once a week is not a big issue.

They have qualifications, but in most cases they are not qualified to teach a whole class.

Actually we are qualified to take a whole class but under the supervision of the class teacher. This can mean working to a lesson plan that the teacher has prepared for the lesson, the teacher doesnt have to be there.

If all Cover Supervisors have to do is hand out work and collect it in again that sounds like babysitting to me. If they do more than that surely they are teaching.

Vespasian - meetings within school hours is inevitable. They often involve parents and children and have to be during school hours where all parties are available.

cat64 - actually the meeting I was referring to was arranged by the HT and was with her. She was working her way through all the Heads of Dept to review this year's results. Given that I was directed to attend, I'm hardly in the position to refuse on the grounds that I shouldn't be missing a lesson.

And anyway, it's different in secondary - my PPAs are what were once called "free periods" - no lessons to cover during those times.

VeraD - there is an enormous amount of grey between the black of "babysitting" and the white of "surely they are teaching".

But isn't it the case that when a CS exists in a school, then meetings are arranged during class contact time when previously this would not have happened on the same scale. It is possible to have school managers covering classes for the occasional meeting.

And was it you, madonna, who said a CS takes the class while you mark? Was that a serious comment?

I think class contact time is too high and does not allow teachers to put enough time and effort into planning and assessing and liaising. However, if CSs are there to cover, they will be a cheap and unsatisfactory way of tackling meaty issues of teaching and learning.

I got it wrong, didn't I. You mean you mark while covering a class.

Oh dear.

That's my job.

I do it as well as I can. I do it pretty well actually. I am hoping to get a GTP role to train as a teacher. Though while training I will still be unqualified.

I am clever and interested and care about the students; I have knowledge in all kinds of areas and I am willing to learn from the students too. I get support and training from the school; teachers wil talk through the work they have left, I talk through with them how the studnets did...

But I can't afford not to work while I train to be a teacher. And I guess the school can't afford to employ a stand-by teacher.

BTW I am staff at my school so at least not a random person the students have never seen before "Oh miss have we got you again???!!" (as a moan or gleeful depending on which student ). I know the behaviour procedure, I know how to take a register, I know where the whiteboard markers are! I don't needto waste time faffing about, I know which students to keep an eye on, which ones will do the work easily, etc etc.

I think a non-supply cover supervisor is better actually than a supply teacher. But then I suppose I would.

LOL (Sort of) at "babysitting". You've clearly never been to my school Verad if you think they are babies

cat64 I've been attending monthly CP meeting where there have been representatives from all the professional services most months and as a SENCO & a full time class teacher how do you propose I manage to attend meetings and teach?

Ok - there is lots of confusion here, and the usual media 'sounbites'.

Firstly, a TA or Cover Supervisor is NOT allowed to 'teach'. They can 'cover' a lesson, in the same way that I as a qualified teacher 'cover' the lesson, but they cannot plan, deliver or mark work. It IS illegal to have non-qualified staff in charge of a class for any length of time - when I was doing my PGCE some years ago I was not allowed to be in a class without a qualified member of staff. The whole point of cover sups is to provide one-off 'cover' when a member of staff is off sick/absent with little notice. As a qualified teacher, when I cover a lesson I do not 'teach' it per se, but hand out/explain/supervise the work being done. There is a subtle difference.

However, in recent months TAs and cover sups have been used, increasingly, to cover long-term sickness/absence. This is not legal. The argument that supply is no good is a weak one - most supply teachers are very adept at coming into to a school and fitting in very well, particularly if long-term cover is needed. At least this is my experience of them. They are highly skilled practitioners and this ought to be acknowledged more.

As to the issue of 'qualified' - granted, a TA/cover sup may well have a degree etc but that does not qualifiy them to teach. I have worked with some excellent support staff during my teaching career but I have to admit that they are rare. I often find them either too overbearing - to the point where they will interrupt my lessons and talk when I'm talking - or completely uselss i.e. they do nothing!

Private schools - they do employ non-PGCE qualified staff if they have a decent level degree in the specialist area in which they want to teach. However, this is becoming increasingly rare as they also like you to have some teaching experience and its almost impossible to get this without a teaching qualification.

Finally - TAs originally appeared in our classrooms with the specific role of supporting students who experienced difficulties with their learning (SEN). It is unfortunate that class sizes, the pressure on teaching staff and increasing demands of young people mean they are used more and more as extra support across the board. What we really need are smaller class sizes (esp. at primary level) and more teaching staff.