Please advise me as I'm getting in a state - DS not settling at school at all

[twolittlemonkeys]

Bit of background - DS1 was so excited about the idea of going to school - he really loves learning and at 4 is already a geek - he asked for maths books for his birthday - can add, subtract and multiply already and is a free reader. Not saying this to boast, just saying to give you an idea - his main 'hobbies' are number-related activities, reading and playing on the computer!

He wasn't offered a place at a local state school because I didn't put down our catchment school (it's awful) on the form. We didn't get any of our choices and when I phoned the LEA to discuss our options they told me I'd have to look into schools in neighbouring towns as all the primary schools locally are full Anyway whilst all this was going on DS1's kindergarten teacher rang a local prep school and asked if they had a discretionary fund as she had a very bright child who would benefit greatly from the school etc etc... She then phoned and told me that if I was interested I should ring the head to make an appointment. Looked round the school and loved it, DS1 seemed keen, head very impressed with him. 2 teachers from school came to observe him and were also impressed. We were offered a substantial bursary to cover most of the fees so we thought the problem was solved. 5 others from his kindergarten were going so we figured he'd be fine socially too.

Anyway fast-forward to the start of term, DS1 seemed enthusiastic about school. After the first day teacher wanted a word after school. He was point blank refusing to do anything he was asked, ignoring her when she spoke to him etc. She asked me for tips on dealing with him/ motivating him! He brought home some ridiculously easy ORT books - I worry that he isn't being stretched but he was happy enough to read them to me. Day 2 I went in with my list of tips (and his kindergarten teacher's number as she was happy to chat to teacher) During the day he had a couple of tantrums, kicking teacher in the process. Being generally awkward about everything. By Friday things seemed to have calmed down and I was hopeful. Teacher put him in with Yr1 for numeracy, which he enjoyed and was calmer for the remainder of the day. Yesterday was better still - he wouldn't eat any lunch but was generally happier.

Today though, we are back to square one, possibly worse - absolutely distraught - could not get him to go into class. Eventually I left him in the throes of a massive tantrum as teacher said she would deal with him so he didn't see he was getting to me and therefore think he was getting the upper hand. Dammit all the other children are settling and seem so happy and my DS is not only not learning but is really disrupting everyone else - other kids are starting to make comments to their parents about him. :(

I should mention he has a few quirks and OCD type tendencies - we have had him assessed by ed psych, speech therapist etc as we thought he might have Aspergers but the conclusion seemed to be that no diagnosis was needed as his behaviour and interactions etc were fine as long as he was being challenged and given activities to stretch him. I don't know what to do for the best - he's suddenly acting like a terrible 2 all over again (but if anything worse than he ever was as a 2 year old).

Sorry for long post - don't want to reveal things by stealth later on. Would be really grateful for any tips as I'm at my wits' end!

I didnt want your post to go unanswered.

I am not sure what to suggest really. Was your ds given a lot of attention at pre school that he may not be getting now? If he is feeling a bit left out then he may be attention seeking.

Did you tell him that kicking teachers is absolutely not the thing to do even if he is angry?
Not sure what else to say as I'm sure far wiser people will be along soon enough.

We have spoken to him very calmly about how kicking etc is never ok - he knows that and hasn't lashed out physically before at kindergarten. There are approximately the same number of children in his class at school as there were in his kindergarten - slightly higher ratio but still there are 20 children with a teacher and 2 TAs - would have thought he has enough attention - teacher has helped coax him into the classroom every day, set him extra work. I do feel they are really making an effort to accommodate him. Thanks. I appreciate your reply!

He may just need to take a bit longer to settle. My eldest is very bright and she finds any kind of change harder to deal with than middle child who just breezes through life.

It could be that he needs to get it all in order in his head before he feels comfortable. I would give it a couple of weeks and then see how he is.

So, is this his second week at school? If so, it may be a case (hard as it is) of watching and waiting.

It sounds as if his teacher is pretty switched on, both in dealing with his tantrum and in putting him with Y1 for numeracy. Can your son tell you why he is unwilling to go into class? Did he have (and, to be brutal, did you encourage) unrealistic ideas about what school would be like, even in (by the sound of it) a selective prep school? I am slightly troubled by the remark - from the ed psych, presumably - that his behaviour is fine as long as he's being challenged and stretched. That's correct, I'm sure, but I also believe that something that children need to get from school is a way of coping when - not all the time, but occasionally, at odd moments - they have finished their work or are finding it easy and are not being stretched. School can't be 100% high octane stimulation for every minute of the day, especially in Reception which (I am assuming) is less structured in prep school just as it is in the state sector. Lashing out at the teacher is very worrying.

As I said, I think it's a bit soon for any further intervention, but in the longer term perhaps you have to work with the school in helping your son to cope with odd moments of frustration. How long ago was the assessment by the ed psych?

Sometimes it takes longer. DS2 cried for ages at drop off. It will pass in the end but you will need to be tough for a while.

My first thought was he's finding the change hard to deal with, in which case time is the only thing that's going to help (and the school sound like they're doing everything they can). It's a lot of changes all at once - maybe getting a copy of the timetable they work to and talking him through what will happen at each point during the day?

ASBOF - yes I suppose in some ways our expectations were unrealistic. May have inadvertently raised his hopes by saying 'You'll love it at school, you'll have fun and learn loads of new things' etc etc We have said to him (several times) that it's important to listen to his teachers and do what they ask, even if it's not what he wants to be doing. Yesterday, whilst he needed some cajoling, he was apparently better at doing things he didn't want to do - his teacher has got some incentive scheme going for him, but this morning was worse than ever. I'm hoping that it is just a case of getting used to the new routine, knowing his way around the school etc which will help him calm down. His teacher made the observation that he seemed to prefer the more structured atmosphere of the Year 1 class. He's always liked structure and routine but was fine with kindergarten and enjoyed the free play times as well as the times when they were doing set activities. I guess I need to sit it out and hope that he'll improve in time.

The ed psych hasn't seen him for a while but the SEN inclusion team who had seen him regularly at home and kindergarten (last time was in July) made their conclusions from what they'd seen as well as SLT and Ed Psych reports. Maybe I'll dig out earlier assessments from over a year ago to see what advice they had when he was younger.

X-post. Yes I think talking through the timetable could help him. As he's my first, I haven't experienced this before but in a way it is reassuring to know other children don't settle straight away (as all the others in his class appear to be fine) and it's not just me...

If he has some ASD behaviours, it's likely that advice suitable for ASD chidren would help him.

He would benefit from knowing the routine - a visual timetable would help him - cards with pictures on showing what activities are next, what he has done/ etc.

It may be that he needs to be reassessed now he's a bit older.

Your son sounds like about a quarter of the boys who are at my twins' school - when they were that age. This is an academically selective school and there are so many children there - but mostly the boys - who are quirky and eccentric and slightly Asperger's (one of my twins has many Asps traits). One child in particular has displayed similar behaviour right up to Yr 3 and 4 but now in Yr 5 seems to be settling down.

It's v common for bright boys especially to have some behavioural social/emotional challenges and it could be that the typical behaviour of his peer group is too much for him to deal with on top of all the changes. Older children and adults will probably be easier for hima nd also maybe something structured to do at breaktimes.

Given that your son was selected for his academic potential, surely the school have had plenty of other bright children with some challenging behaviours before. Are you worried that they'll stop supporting his attendance/ fees etc if he doesn't settle down quickly or are you more worried that he's finding it difficult per se?

I suspect he'll need lots and lots of time and consistency across the first school year to begin to settle and I also suspect that not all the other children have settled perfectly anyway.

It's hard if he's one of those children who don't quite fit any criteria for a definite diagnosis. DT2 is like this. If you're intellectually bright you may be years behind even in social and emotional ways and DT2 is still challenged, although he doesn't express it aggressively but is more a worrier/slightly obsessive/ needs to be in control all the time.

He's in exactly the right school however because he's surrounded by others like him or at least with various quirks of their own.

Definitely talk more with the school and ask how they might be able to help more and also ensure yourself that you can trust they'll support your son to take the time he needs to settle.

Sorry to have left thread for a while - laptop died yesterday - keeps overheating then not going back on for ages. Thanks for the messages Solo and BigTillyMint. I used a whiteboard at home for a while so he knew what we were doing each day so may try that again to show him his timetable until he settles down a bit more.

Solo, good to hear your experience - I think you've hit the nail on the head with your advice - I am a bit worried they'll stop subsidising his place at the school if he doesn't settle down, especially as they don't advertise scholarships etc (he was only offered one because his kindergarten teacher enquired - I didn't think they existed at prep schools tbh) I was delighted to get him into the school because lots of parents told me they do push children academically which is what he needs. His social and emotional age definitely don't match his intellectual abilities - he'll approach children with a question such as 'What's 47+28?' and they'll go and wander off!

The teacher just seemed so baffled that he was being awkward and obsessive, it was almost as if she's never taught a child who hasn't been really compliant all the time! Yesterday when I picked him up he'd been better & teacher said he's settling down a bit in the classroom, just being awkward when changing activities, having lunch etc. That's given me a glimmer of hope that he'll settle down soon. They're still giving him reading books and work that's too easy, but I guess when we get his behaviour smoothed out then we can tackle the level of the work he's getting... Thanks again :)

I'm bumping this because 2 weeks on things seem to have got worse - DS is going into school fine, happy to be there and coming out smiling but basically doing his own thing most of the time. He's still on ridiculously easy reading books (but they want him to work his way through the ORT stages so he's familiar with characters and storylines ) so is reading them, albeit in a hurried, I'm-bored-with-these sort of way, but then refuses to discuss them etc, whereas he loves talking about books at home. In numeracy, teacher tries to give him work to stretch him, but he refuses and acts up. Won't participate in P.E. (or dips in and out as he pleases, refusing to follow the rules of the game), doesn't sing in music etc etc.

Teacher seems to be at her wits' end - every day she tells me what he has/hasn't done and I've run out of ideas. Other children seem to have already labelled him as the naughty one :( though the way he has been acting I can't blame them. He came home in his PE kit yesterday because he just wouldn't get changed and hid under the table instead. I just have no idea why he's suddenly being so awkward.

My ds is now yr 4, he found reception very difficult, he just wasn't ready emotionally for school. Sorry if this is not much comfort at the moment (hope someone with more suggestions will be along soon), but my ds did settle down, after christmas he was fine. IMO it's still early days. When is he 5?

Has the teacher sought advice from anybody else?

twolittlemonkeys you are describing my DS exactly.

He is now 7 and still struggles at school, but over the years his very good very small school have supported him very well.

Basically DS, although perfectly fine at home, with me, shows plenty of signs of ASD at school, now far less than at the start, but with lots of observations and specialist help we have pinpointed his difficulty to be sensory overload, the hustle and bustle of classrooms (especially reception classrooms) the seeming lack of routine, the noise etc. were very hard for him to process and filter out.

Once the school pinpointed this as the trigger for his difficulties theycould do a lot to support him. He is also very bright, very confrontational, has a very strong sense of justice and his 'rights' etc etc and punishment means nothing to him.

I take every day one at a time. While he grew out of some of the challenging behaviour he exibited in reception and year 1 (like hiding under tables), he has developed other things that challenge teachers as he has got older.

I take every day one at a time. Small steps. Lots of communication between school staff and myself, lots of talking to him, etc. etc. but I do not think he's suddlnly going to change and be one of the 'compliant' and 'good' children in the class.

Reduce your expectations. Have none. See it as not really in his control, don't be too harsh on him.

With things like reading, if he's a free reader it doesn't matter if he's bringing home ORT books, presumably he has plenty of books he can read at home. I have never read a school book with DS, unless he wants to, and sometimes he would pick an easy book because he wanted to. Doesn't mean he isn't being challenged.

The best approach for the school to use it to deal with his behaviour the same way they would a child with an ASD diagnosis. Most children respond well to that sort of behaviour intervention.

Good luck. You may need to have a bit of cry and mounr over the loss of what you thought your DS would be at school, and your expectations of him that you thought he would fulfil, and then try to accept him for who he is, he's probably not deliberately being difficult, he is just reacting to an environment that he cannot cope with well.

Ask his teacher to provide him with a visual timetable if she isn't already doing that (she probably is though) and go through it with him every morning.

hiding under the table is a classic sign that he is not coping with the stimulation, noise and chaos that is changing out of PE uniforms. Hiding under the table provides a security for him to help him cope.

A friend has a child who has some sort of sensory overload condition - linked I think to Asberger's spectrum. It didn't show up until he started school, because school was so noisy and vivid and he is hypersensitive to stimulation. Pre-school has a far tighter ratio of children to staff. School leaves them to fend for themselves too much (for children with this condition) and if he is also being asked to do work which is ridiculously easy, that could make him feel really ill at ease.

Sorry if that's not much help but what you describe sounds very similar to my friend's son, except that didn't have heightened ability too, just found the sensory overload absolutely terrifying. Could he have a corner?

I really hope things improve for him soon.

It does sound very like some kind of ASD, judging by your description. In the short term, I'd suggest reading up on autistic friendly ways of working and apply them to your ds, and tell the school of our your suspicions. Your GP can refer you to CAMHS for an assessment if you think it sounds apt.

My DS loved nursery but took the best part of a year to settle in Reception. His teacher commented that most 5 year olds were generally compliant- he used to just go off and sit elsewhere at storytime.

He was really enthusiastic about going to secondary but the massive changes were too much to cope with and he unravelled really quickly. He was suicidal after 5 weeks and after speedy intervention from the SENCO and an emergency referral to CAMHS, he was diagnosed with a mild ASD similar to Aspergers. He's fine now (2 years on) although he finds classes that are uncontrolled/disruptive very stressful.

Even if your DS is not autistic, starting school is a major upheaval and not every child can cope immediately.
HTH.

Thank you so much for your posts. The head rang me yesterday and wants to speak to me about him tomorrow. I'm so worried it's escalated so quickly and concerned that they will kick him out of the school (as it's an independent school and he has a heavily subsidised place there so if he's going to be such hard work they may think it's not worth their while having him there) I will ask if they are able to work in conjunction with SEN Inclusion Team/ Ed Psych who assessed him when he was in preschool. What you've said about him possibly being on the autistic spectrum rings true, and I had suspected this from when he was about 2.5 but at preschool he seemed to settle and his autistic/aspie tendencies lessened - as long as he was challenged he was happy and the noise levels there didn't bother him. The ratio of adults: children in his class is similar to his kindergarten. He's currently in a class of 21 with 1 teacher and 2 F/T TAs so would have thought it'd be alright. The only time he has been ok since he started was the day he went in with yr 1 for numeracy - apparently he was calmer for the rest of the day (quieter classroom, more challenging work) but for some reason they haven't repeated this. I know in the state sector they are very reluctant to move children up a year but perhaps he'd benefit in this case, even though he isn't 5 til March.

It's great to hear others' experiences though and I will give an update after I have spoken to the Head this afternoon. I will definitely suggest they treat him as if he has an ASD diagnosis.

Fingers crossed for you & ds twolittlemonkeys

twolittlemonkeys, if the school cannot make adjustments to help, home education is often useful for ASD children. It allows them to control the environment and work at their own pace.

OP - he just sounds SO much like many, may children I know at my twins' school - that combination of very bright plus somewhere on ASD spectrum. I really think that the school should be v familiar with this kind of combination - presuming it's hot on academic ability. rarely fo you get v bright children - especially boys - WITHOUT some social/ emotional/communication issues.

So the thing that is most incomprehensible is that the school don't seem so familiar with this kind of behaviour and don't already have in place several ways of dealing with it.

At my sons' school there's a learning support teacher who helps with everything from dyslexia (spme of the maths geniuses have dyslexia tendencies for eg) to behavioural/ social help. the whole atmosphere is inclined towards working around the problems and getting the best out of the children. I visited the upper part of the school for the first time, the other day and it was filled with incredibly 'eccentric' young boys demonstrating science that was way beyond me. You could just see that in another kind of school they'd have been mercilessly bullied and never fit in - but here they were never the only 'weird' one, as there are so many!

I don't know your DSs school but do you think it might be more the kind that, whilst encompassing bright children, is less academically selective and therefore favours more compliant and "normal" behaviour?

From what you say, your son sound (exactly the same as a friend's son we know) like he needs some one-to-one help with adapting to the environment and far less expectation to fit in and socialise and conform. Many bright children deliberately oppose authority because they haven't got enough else going on to interest and absorb their attention.

The class size sounds quite large? My 9 yr olds are now in what I consider a HUGE class size for a private school - of 25. But from age 4 to 7 the class size was only 10 to 12 per class plus a TA.

I guess the bottom line is have the school got the resources and attitude to work WITH your son and with you to enable him to reach his potential - or do they just want a class of conformist, easy to be with, slightly less quirky but bright 4 yr olds?

There are other private school where I am that are NOT academically selective but are composed of v 'nice' well-behaved, polite children, selected more for 'parental background' and compliant behaviour than intelligence. Could it be that your DSs school is more that kind?

If I were you, I would ask things like, "I wonder how you usually manage children like my DS to fit in and thrive? What are you USUAL methods of enabling children who are over-stimulated socially/ emotionally but under stimulated academically to do well" - putting the onus on them to assure you that they can and will do this.

There should also be no sense of stigma attached to having help with the fees. Again, at my DTs school, lots of children are on bursaries and the social mix covers the whole range. My twins had a tiny bursary for the first two yrs (not any longer, sadly, as I'm just over the earning limit) and loads of others have much bigger bursaries.

Solo, your school sounds wonderful - do you have a hyperlink to it?

Your last post was lovely: so reassuring to hear someone admit there's a correlation between being very bright and being a bit of a mismatch socially with peers. One of my sons finds the social aspect of school challenging and he is very bright. Luckily he's not that temperamental and doesn't care too much that the others think he's weird, but I'm always on edge as they do bully him. He handles it brilliantly, but I'd love him not to have to, would love him to be at a school where he can make friends whose interests and levels of engagement and inquiry match his own. I'd love to find a school where scientific geekiness is the norm. He'd be so happy there.

Thank you Solo - your school sounds ideal! I'm hoping the head is wanting to speak to us regarding strategies/ meeting DS's needs rather than to suggest we look elsewhere. Above all I want him to be happy there, but he needs the stimulation otherwise he will just ignore the teacher and play with lego in the corner!

SDeuchars - I have considered HE - I think it would suit DS wonderfully, but not me :( I don't think I'd cope well HEing long-term, but will certainly do it if things don't work out at this school, at least until I can find somewhere equipped to cope with him and encourage him.

Just a quick update -

All my fretting was for nothing! The Head was hugely supportive, said this place is always open for DS, he just wants to ensure that he settles in and they help him to thrive there. There was more mention of him going into Yr 1 again for some lessons or even just moving up, or going back to kindergarten and slowly easing into school (tbh I think this would just confuse him more and make him reluctant to come back to school).

They are going to speak to the SEN Inclusion Team and perhaps get him reassessed for ASD, given all the tendencies he's been displaying (his teacher has apparently been thinking this is a possibility and looking things up online to help deal with him). So overall, very positive and I'm feeling less fraught, though I think it will still be a slow process to get him settled, I'm more confident now that they will be able to accommodate him in the school after all.