State vs Private and me vs DH

[dastardlydoodah]

I don't know if this is a regular topic on here, but could really do with some advice.

We currently live in Putney with DD (6mo). Our flat has 1 bedroom and we will have to move in 6 months or so as I'm desperate for more space. It's doubtful that we'll be able to afford something bigger here, and we're both very open to moving out of London for more space, better schools, nice community etc. So far, so good.

Problem is, I want to move somewhere that has a good state education system. DH earns good money, but not amazing amounts, and paying the £12k per year for DD to go to school would cripple us. I have never been a high earner and was hoping to spend a couple of years with DD at home, then retrain. I think the time with me would be great for DD, and that a move out of London to somewhere with more of a community would be amazing for us all as a family. I also don't want fights between DH and I about who has been working hardest/latest/has to make dinner, etc etc. I am really enjoying the dynamic we have at the moment and would like it to continue.

Our problem is that DH is desperate for DD to be privately educated. He has said that he doesn't care how many sacrifices he has to make or how miserable we are, she is the most important thing and we have to make sure she has access to the best education possible. At the moment we have a reasonably high standard of living, despite my not currently earning, and I just can't see how we would survive.

I suppose I am asking, am I being reasonable in thinking that maybe a private education isn't the be all and end all, is there a particular county with really good state education, and have other people had this dilemma and what did they do?

It sounds like your DH is working on the assumption that private is always better than state. It's not. There are some mediocre private schools and some excellent state ones. I also think it depends very much on the individual child as to the kind of environment they would thrive in.

I was very accademically able at school, went through the state school system and literally couldn't have got better grades or a better degree had my parents shelled out on a private education.

Private schools tend to be better at some things - like opportunities in sport, music, drama etc. They're better at starting off the concept of 'networking', and they can also be more supportive coaching you through the Oxbridge application process, although being from a good private school can now be a disadvantage with this.

I am probably a bit of an opposite to a lot of people in that I would be more likely to send a 'not particularly able' DC to a private school on the basis that the more personal attention and better parent/school communication might be more supportive in enabling the child to do the best that they can.

There are a couple of private schools near here where this seems to be typical, in that they are full of very well off but not particularly academically bright kids (I know this from having worked in a couple of them, not from judging kids I don't know).

I guess the point I am trying to make is that the best education for your DC will depend very much on the individual school and on your DC, not on a private vs state ideological argument. Perhaps your and your DH need to talk about the kind of future you want for her, what she will need for that to happen, what happens if she grows up completely differently to how you imagine?

Also as the other poster mentioned, think about the indirect costs of private education, and the ramifications about being the kid in the class whose parents can't afford the ski trip and the orchestra trip etc.

I think ideology gets in the way with this, it's about the individual.

D

Novicemamma puts it really well.
We are sending ds to an improving secondary school, whilst most of his classmates are going private. Neither dh or I were educated privately, and I would not send my ds to a private school. Nothing to do with money- we can afford it- but it is just something I do not agree with personally.
Dh had a poor education and left school at 16 with few qualifications- was bullied, and his parents were not interested in supporting him. Yet he has his own successful company, could retire at 50 and not worry.
He is getting twitchy feet about sending ds to his secondary school and wondering whether we should have chosen private.
Ds is bright (and lazy) but I know he will do well at the chosen school- and it's where he wants to go.
I am extremely confident about the school's potential, and am looking forward to getting involved in it.
Putney's state schools are not generally amazing- Hotham and St Mary's are good. As Because.. says, there are excellent schools in SW19.

Sorry but this is not about state vs private but it really sounds like you can't afford it for one child let alone 2. IMO you just can't do it on just earned income you need some capital back in case of redundancy, illness, large increases in fees etc... We do it with DH's salary paying the bills and mine the school fees but mainly because I am very pro private. However, we would never have to pull the kids out as we have enough investments to pay the whole lot of need be. Worked out each child will cost us £150k+ at least in todays money. Do you have £300k you could access?

How about his parents paying?

Also, please remember that you being at home with your child/ren has enormous intangible benefits for you child.

BTW I am DEFINITELY NOT looking for a sahm v working mum debate, but as op has highlighted that they have options at the moment regarding her working or being at home, then it is a factor to consider.

You have one 6 month old baby, and you can afford to privately educate her at a stretch. What happens if baby number 2 comes along? That is the main issue to me.

In your shoes I would definitely investigate moving out of London to a county with good state primaries and grammar schools.

I went to a Kent grammar and the education there was better than at the selective, highly-regarded private school I ended up in when we moved to a different area.

Or look at areas with good comprehensives!

Have you considered a compromise? State education for primary in most areas is good to very good and with some good research and flexibility to move to a good area this is very possible. There are certainly many benefits to consider if you move your child into a very good (not all are)private school for secondary. Here is where your money will be best spent and the benefits of excellent sports, arts, and academic teaching will be most noticeable. It also resolves the problem of not being in catchment for the best secondary state school. You may have to get a tutor to help pass the 11+ exams. This gives you lots of scope to make decisions based on your situation at the time and whether you have 2 or more children to plan for. It also allows you to save up for secondary schooling for one or two children.

Well no, so waiting to choose your area until you have an idea of your child's ability might be a more sensible option.

We moved from Putney to Kent - there are many good schools here (both private and state), though you'd still need to research specific local areas of course. In my view many of the state primaries here are every bit as good - in terms of academic results ? as many prep schools.

I was privately educated, dh was not. Our starting point was quite a blinkered 'private all the way' view but after a lot of discussion we're going with our local village state primary and then we'll see for secondary. Hopefully grammar, though it's quite a long way off.

For us, we decided state primary because:

1. With 2 children, private will get expensive and we'd prefer to spend the money on other things e.g skiing (you have one dd, are you planning another child?)
2. Exposure to more social diversity
3. They're just as likely to pass the 11+ at state as they are at private (round here apparently even prep school parents pay for additional 11+ tuition, not an expert on 11+ though as dcs still young)
4. It might just be this area, but I've found the parents much more actively and passionately involved in the local state primaries than the prep school parents
5. I accept I'll probably end up putting more effort into arranging extra curricular activity eg drama, music etc myself as less will be provided by the school but I'm happy to do that. Also like the idea of them building networks and confidence outside school. Plus I think they might even get better coaching (e.g drama at the town theatre, rather than in the school hall)

The state v private debate can bring out strong opinions both online and in RL. But we're definitely happy that we've made the right decision for us.

1. A private education does not guarantee the best education possible.
2. It sounds, bluntly, like you cannot afford it.

I would just add that 12k for private may not be entirely realistic. I pay 13k for ds at prep school but the 18k for dd at Senior school, and that's not in London either.

Have to say though, we do not regret one penny of it.

So, so many wonderful responses! Sorry for the absence.

Lots of you are pointing out things that I have raised before. Novicemama, you mention connections and such - I think this is a huge pull to private schools for DH. He did not have a good education at all, and left aged 16 to become a pro fotballer (which injury put paid to). His parents had wanted to send him to the boarding school his father had gone to, but he refused. I think that plays a huge part.

I went to wonderful state schools, as did both of my DSisters, and all three of us have done very well.

It is my view that a good state school can rival a private education, and lots of you are right when you say that if we are stretching ourselves financially then it is a bad idea. To be honest, we can't afford it. I will never earn lots of money because I want to be around for DD. And I think that museum and gallery visits, holidays to places with different cultures, and hobbies, are all just as important educationally as going to school. I want DD to have an enriched life, not one where she is surrounded by children from far richer families who make her feel as though she is the 'poor' one. Which, by the way, she shouldn't be - DH does earn reasonable money.

COE, I like your list immensely, you seem to have very similar views to my own but are able to be much more succinct. Thank you.

I think it's very commendable that your DH wants to do his very best for your lovely baby.
Isn't that what we all want afterall?
However, the stark reality is that you don't sound like you can afford it.
So either, your DH gets a job that pays a lot more money, or he has to compromise on this issue.

If it were me I would gently explain the huge expense involved in an independent education. Uniforms, trips etc.

I have the answer for you.

Move to Kingston/Thames Ditton/Esher (depending on how far out you want to be). Go to excellent state primary. Save up for private secondary in case child doesn't get into Tiffin. Done.

I think this is the case in a lot of the outer boroughs--it's nice and leafy and the state schools are good. Kingston is not that far from putney either!

I don't think you can afford it.

I would send my kids private if I could afford it relatively easy, I don't have an ideological problem with it and was privately educated myself. But you can get private schools that are shit/not that brilliant and state schools that are better/the same. Also, financial instability is very stressful. It is likely that at some point the phrase 'We've given up so much to pay for your education' will be used, and that's just damaging.

I do know several people who were educated privately and, while they are all lovely, I can't say that their private education has brought them much academic success, as they attended good but not outstanding unis, have good but not outstanding careers, and I have many friends who were state-educated who have done better or as good. But then I know some really great private schools, who are definitely giving their kids an advantage, particularly with all the extra-curricular stuff.

So I would say private school is great if you can afford it and your kid can get into a goodie (most are academically selective) but not worth massive financial stress.

The good primaries in Kingston have microscopic catchment areas due to their popularity. Look very carefully at the catchment areas if you intend to move here.

We live in Kingston and did not look at this issue when we moved. When we came to look at primary options for DD we were told we were "not in the catchment area for any schools. Everyone in your area goes private". So we had to.

We live near Kingston, don't earn much money (for London), but we've always sent our daughter to private school - apart from one year, when she went to the state primary here, and it just didn't match up to the other schools she'd been to before. I see exactly where your DP is coming from and have always thought the same as him. We don't have a spare £150,000 as one poster has suggested - we do have enough money to cover fees for a year, should there be a problem, and we both work hard to bring in the money to pay the fees (which go up every year by more than the rise in income - be warned!). If necessary I would sell my house and buy one in a cheaper area (Hanworth!!) to raise capital. DD goes on the regular class trips (eg outward bound trips, to France etc) but not the extras like skiing. I don't regret a penny of the money we've spent and would do it again. That said, I would have to think twice if we had two kids and would probably send them to state primary and private secondary. Despite my experiences at the junior school, it would have been OK if we'd topped up what the state offers with tutoring. As a final thought, my DD's cousin (always state educated) has walked away with 4 A*s, 7 As and 2 Bs in his GCSEs at his decent Wandsworth comprehensive school! ;)

Also, where does your DH work, is he tied in to one location, how secure is his employment, and how long is he prepared to spend travelling? (Plus don't forget cost of a season ticket or motorbike!) All these will be relevant if you decide to move out.

Have you and DH sat down to talk through what are the most important factors in education for you? For example, do you think you're more likely to be comfortable with a traditional or a progressive approach? What size school? What ethos?

How much choice would you really want, and can you get it in the state system (allocations by lottery, fairbanding, e we shrinking catchment are)?

How important is academic performance? Art, music, drama, sport?

Also, the Good Schools Guide covers both state and primary schools. Have a look now - see what they say and what you like.

At least you have plenty of thinking time. I've couched all this in terms of how you and DH see education, because it's still very early to be predicting what sort of child your DD will be. You might want to think about finding a realistic range of schools, to give a best fit for her nearer the time, rather than trying to be very specific.

"Quite often private school is cheaper than paying for a house in a good catchment area."

Really? Moving house will cost more than the equivalent of around £12000 times 14 per child?

I don't have much to add. You don't sound as if you can afford Private Education. It will cost you much more than £12K at least in senior school, in addition to fees there is Uniform (3 pages of A4 at a local school, where as DDs state school 3/4 items from the specialist retailer cost £200+); and is she going to be the only one not to go on the Ski trip? have music lessons? And don't mention if she is dyslexic (they charge for extra lessns there too).

My DCs primary is full of children who will go on to Private secondary, and some of the parents could easily afford private primary too. My DCs secondary sends 10+ to Oxbridge every year, and they are a comp.

Not all state education is the same, and neither is all private. Maybe you need to drag your husband to see some good state schools.

In your case it isn't about a few sacrifices, it sounds impossible. BTW my husband earns well, but we couldn't afford Private schools. We have one car, not flash, a reasonable house (needs work) and haven't been abroad for a couple of years, and when we go it is normally Camping.

My kids seem to be doing fine, and do have the self-confidence that is often associated with private school pupils (without the arrogance).

There are outstanding girls state secondary in Kingston btw

seeker- yes a house in a good catchment can easily cost £1k more a month in mortgage payments than somewhere in an undesirable catchment