Welsh names

[Enwau]

I've just been reading through baby names threads..

There was a comment about non-welsh people using Welsh names being cultural appropriation... !

I didn't want to derail the thread any more than it had been so thought I'd ask here what people think about those with zero Welsh heritage or connections using Welsh names for their offspring?

I'm undecided. It's nice to see Welsh names out there but I also dislike nouveau spellings and different pronunciations ... But that's just me being precious.

They're definitely learnable... when people bother.
You can't teach someone to say sounds that they can't hear, or can't get their tongues around, and most people won't understand why you mind.

Parents can call their children whatever first names they want to, assuming that the registrar allows it, but I don't have to think it is ok.

Why you didn't think it was Ok 😁 of course.

They're definitely learnable... when people bother.
You can't teach someone to say sounds that they can't hear, or can't get their tongues around, and most people won't understand why you mind.

Omg. Please stop talking for everyone else. It's amazing anyone has ever learned to pronounce another language.

We live in a multi cultural world and people learn to pronounce names from different languages all the time.

@DaNiYmaOHyd no it's not Eira, although that is a lovely name - without giving it away, it was one DH and I were confident we'd be able to pronounce, even with Anglo-Saxon tongues...

Technically she would be 1/4 Welsh (my grandad was Welsh, as was my DH's Nana) and she is 1/4 Welsh on paper too because of where her grandma was born. We do try to visit the town we lived in (while at university and for a while after until we had to move back to England) as often as we can - if we ever get the opportunity to move back, we'd do it in a heartbeat. We did choose it because of that connection we feel, not because we just liked the sound of it but I also understand what you mean.

Now I wonder if I'm not Welsh enough to have an opinion...

My mum was born and raised in Wales but her parents were Irish so I'm not sure where that leaves me.

I'll also be sure to tell my friend whose parents were Canadian that despite living her entire life in Wales and speaking Welsh that she's not 'ethnically' Welsh and should rethink her son's name!

@DaNiYmaOHyd yes you can, that's how languages are learned! Im a dark skinned immigrant to Wales. My Welsh is poor, my husband's very passable, my children are fluent. I can pronounce every Welsh name I come across even though I'm not a Welsh speaker.

My husband is Welsh even though Welsh is not his mother tongue. My children are Welsh even though they are not Celts.

I understand the point you and @SirVixofVixHall make, but I find it simple and divisive personally

I think we've done this to my son

We can pronounce his name properly in Welsh - I speak a little. It's not an obviously Welsh name like lots previously mentioned it's more unusual looking but Welsh speakers normally twig it's Welsh. I'm English but my parents are Welsh and Scottish. Me and DH live in an English place with a strong regional accent that we speak with, so our son's name has inevitably been affected by this. The best way I can describe it is that all the consonants and vowel sounds are the same, correct number of syllables but the emphasis in the name is in a slightly different place!

Sorry son

That was supposed to be a reply to PP Rhiannon who pronounces her own name weird!

No - but equally, teaching people to put stress in the right place, or just to use a sound in a position that they aren't expecting, even when it's part of their language, isn't too difficult. I wouldn't expect someone to learn to do the ll- at the start of Llinos, necessarily, but I would expect them to stress the first syllable and not to reduce the second to schwa, given that o is a sound in English, even though we usually do reduce unstressed syllables to schwa.

"I wouldn't expect someone to learn to do the ll- at the start of Llinos"

Hardly anybody who doesn't speak Welsh can pronounce the 'll' properly. I've met thousands of people who've tried. Some people add a non-existent 'k' and some think it's the German 'ch', but 99% of them can't do it. So those people who say pronunciations can be learnt, well, only to a point...

You can produce a good approximation of the ll sound by putting your tomgue behind your teeth and hissing.

Lots of non Welsh speaking Welsh people (mis)pronounce the ll as a single l. So Landaff cathedral, Landudno etc.

You can produce a good approximation of the ll sound by putting your tongue behind your teeth and hissing.

This thread is so interesting.

I’m Welsh, have grown up here, English speaking with parents who are first language Welsh who sadly didn’t pass it on. I’m a keen learner but pretty sure I can say ‘ll’ correctly - however I have grown up with the sound, my nearest town has it twice in the name.

The ‘ei’ sound fascinates me - I had lots of relatives, all gone now, all first language Welsh speakers who had the sound in their names - Eiryl, Ceinwen, Eira

and all used the ‘eye’ sound. Is it just regional pronounciation within Wales itself? We are South West Wales on the edge of the industrial region so would anglicisation have been creeping in to the language as far back as the 1890s when some of them were born and influenced the pronunciation?

"Is it just regional pronounciation within Wales itself?"

Yes, that does exist. I'm not sure how it happened. You could ask that on Twitter and somebody could probably reply.

That's not so much a mispronunciation as just making no effort at all.

Yes it’s lazy I agree.

@BestIsWest , it's regional. If you are from where I think you are, the local accent is strong and distinctive. I'm curious as to how your Welsh-speaking neighbours say ei as a standalone word (as in his or her)

At @DaNiYmaOHyd will ask Mam later!

@sunglassesonthetable , how do I teach someone to say Meinir when all attempts have failed? I get Men-ear, Mey-near or Mayney, but never Meinir.

No idea, I was hopeless with Welsh pronunciation in the beginning. I'm quite decent now. I could even say your name.

but
^They're definitely learnable... when people bother.
You can't teach someone to say sounds that they can't hear, or can't get their tongues around, and most people won't understand why you mind.^

Omg. Please stop talking for everyone else. It's amazing anyone has ever learned to pronounce another language.

You made it sound like it was my fault.

I let people call me May because it seems the least worst option. Don't like it but I got used to it. Parents used to say 'You should insist people say it properly.', but I can't. It seems impossible. Learning to say new sounds is hard.

Went to A&E last week and got called Miner yet again. I said 'Meinir' and let it go. It's wrong enough to not worry, whereas May-near is just horrible.

My dd has an ancient Latin name. Should I be worried about my world conquering imperialist tendencies? As I come from a multi-cultural country and now live in the really high Welsh language part of Wales I hear and use Welsh names all the time. Do my very best to pronounce any name as the name owner (or parent) would wish and carefully spell it correctly no matter what the culture. Surely that's the best you can do?

Went to A&E last week and got called Miner yet again. I said 'Meinir' and let it go. It's wrong enough to not worry, whereas May-near is just horrible.

I'm sorry no one ever^^ pronounces your name correctly.

It's clearly a massive bugbear.

People can and do learn new pronunciations. I have myself. Your ear attunes. I can't vouch for first attempts though.

I can't remember if you said where you live but people saying your name correctly must be one of the upsides of visiting Wales.

Plenty of people say it properly, but I'm not able to move back to Wales right now.
I'm sure someone with the inclination could learn, but colleagues and other people outside Wales generally probably don't have the inclination.

The bugbear is people denying that it's an issue. It's not an issue as such, but it's something I live with.

I suspect that if the name was not a Welsh one, and I had a name from a different culture, but got called an 'easier' English name, people would be more understanding.