Physiotherapy SEEN

[VenusEnvyXX]

I am concerned about the CSP's position statement on transphobia and want to explore whether members think the CSP would benefit from having it's own SEEN.

If you're not familiar with SEENs, they are a balance to the LGBTQIA+ groups, can be formally recognised and eligible for funding on an equal footing as other network groups. They exist in civil service, journalism, police, HR, city, and the NHS one is nearly ready to launch.

I do not agree with Rob Yeldham, and previously, Karen Middleton, when they say that physiotherapy has a transphobia issue. If there is evidence of this I have not seen it.

I have been contacted by a number of CSP staff and members, who share my concerns that this announcement misrepresents the law, defames members and manages to be both unnecessary and unclear.

It seems that people who are diametrically opposed to the view that sex is real and immutable are employed by and in positions of power and influence at our trade union. This is absolutely fine, it is important for a trade union to reflect its membership. I am uncomfortable with the views of activists forming policy without due process and debate. I hope to be wrong, but I suspect that might have happened in the formation of this CSP position statement.

It is difficult to speak up about these issues, people are scared of being accused of transphobia, and rightly so, the personal penalties can be high.

If you would be willing to share your views or insights with me anonymously here then I'd be grateful. Alternatively, (and if you are willing to trust that I am who I say I am!):
email - [email protected]
substack - @venusenvyxx
twitter - @gussiegrips

I am proud to have had a long career in physio and it seems to me that this is little more than a training and communication issue, which, like sex, is not complicated.

bests
Elaine Miller

Yes, and that has resulted in harm to at least one woman who was raped on a ward and then gas lit by the trust and had to seek help from the House of Lords. https://www.kentandmedway.icb.nhs.uk/application/files/6616/5537/7359/FOI.22.KAM017_-_Single_sex_accommodation_policy.pdf

I think Rob thinks that the Annexe B stuff means that we can't refuse to see a trans identified male. I can't treat males because it's outwith my scope of practice, that's not discrimination.

I treat trans identified females and NB females because that's in my scope of practice. Mr Mansplainer is wrong about the detransitioner stats - the truth is we don't know as detransitioners simply FTA and there is no service for them. However, there are a growing number of them and there is a role for physio in their recovery.

There's a safeguarding issue - lone female workers are of course entitled to not see male patients, regardless of their gender status. They can't deny them treatment - they'd refer the person to someone who isn't a lone female worker, that's how it's worked ever since I was a physio and that wasn't yesterday.

I can't understand why the discussion about gender is so bloody narrow. We can help with shoulder, joint, bone, cardiac, psychiatric, post-op, pregnancy, sexual function and detrans issues. Why is all just "YOU WILL COMPLY"?

I don't know why Rob keeps saying it's complicated (and the statement goes on about going past the law) it's perfectly simple, you apply the law as it stands and sex is male or female and sometimes matters in life and law. Not hard concepts at all.

@VenusEnvyXX I’m being deliberately obtuse here but having once had a male friend end up in A&E dressed in full Rocky Horror make up, corset and suspenders,I feel sorry for staff having to interpret such guidance that says “If on admission, it is impossible to ask the view of the person because he or she is unconscious or incapacitated then, in the first instance, inferences should be drawn from presentation and mode of dress” (ref.annex B of the NHS document)

Hi Elaine,
I just saw your comment on the iCSP thread about the removal of my post and seeking legal advice 😬
I’m assuming the CSP aren’t taking any action but maybe that’s naive. The email I got said that my post had been removed due to being in contravention of the CSP position on transphobia. It also said that I was free to repost with the offending sentence removed or reworded so as not to contravene CSP policies.
I replied explaining that I obviously would not post anything that I thought was transphobic and what wording would they find acceptable that kept the meaning of the post.
I am yet to hear back from them.
Have you had any legal advice?

Ok, having seen Rob’s recent reply on iCSP I’m reassured that they aren’t actually accusing any of us sex realists of being transphobic, and won’t be taking any action against us (not that there are any grounds to 🙄). Sounds like they’re just saying that some of the language might cause hurty feelings so they don’t want to have it on the website 🙄
Honestly, I could do without all this eye rolling 🙄

Where is the new CEO in all this? I feel Karen Middleton might have responded to people but he maintains a very low profile. Has anyone met him? Does he even exist??

I feel that they’re 100% saying the comments are transphobic but that it’s all just ignorance that they can happily provide re-education for. It’s really staggering tbh. The whole concept of gender identity is disputed. It’s like being told you have to believe in Jesus and go to church to demonstrate your faith. I’m a bit lost for words

I think it is odd there is no leadership on this. There is enough concern to pull it all and have council review it. No one posts on iCSP usually so this can’t have been missed.

It would appear the leadership on this is Rob!

Hi Goldfish, I was infuriated when your words were edited, the implications act you need to be "corrected" is just insulting. We are professionals and do not need policing, if there are issues with individuals there are processes in place to manage those.

I have spoken to a lawyer. I wanted to know whether the position statement was legal. The initial opinion was that it is not and there might be a case that the CSP position seeks to drive out GC physios, silence us or punish us.

I am writing this in the hope that someone from the CSP will see it (I did post the link to this thread on iCSP) pull the bloody statement, get their own lawyer to look at it and stop this nonsense before the press get hold of Reduxx and FSU's articles. It's been a busy news week and I expect that's the only reason the scandal of "trade union discriminates against members" hasn't been picked up.

My understanding is that Rob is telling council that the negative response is a contained issue.

I do not agree with him.

Is there anyone here who'd consider standing for council?

https://www.csp.org.uk/about-csp/how-were-governed/council/council-elections-2024/purpose-council-what-members-do

It seems we get training in finance and governance etc. it's a 4 year commitment, they cover your costs for meetings and there are zooms to discuss plans, policies and finance etc.

I do not believe that everyone on council agrees with the EDB committee and this position statement. It's understandable, it's not easy to speak up and be on the receiving end of abuse, misrepresentation and criticism, but, I found it is something I quickly got used to it.

I think the easiest way to fix things is to do it from the inside. So I'm planning to stand - this silliness has to stop, there must be balance to the influence TRAs have claimed in our organisation.

In order to stand I'll need 6 nominations. I've got one. Anyone fancy helping me out?

Article on "how to"
https://www.csp.org.uk/frontline/article/your-council-needs-you-3

Hi Elaine, I’ll nominate you. I’ll send you a pm with my details

Yes I will nominate you Elaine! Thank you, you are right that the way to sort it is to have people working on the inside!

Thank you! I think I'd enjoy the council - there's lots to learn and I've got 30 odd years of experience of membership to draw on.

I wrote a substack thing about words and the CSP.

https://open.substack.com/pub/venusenvyxx/p/what-happens-if-we-gobblefunk-around?r=3mkmwi&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true

Elaine, I’m happy to nominate you too.
message me if I can help

Thank you for this thread.

Hi Elaine,
Many thanks for starting this thread - and your work bringing like-minded physios together.
I will happily nominate you for council if you still need people to do that, just let me know - you have my email address.
I'm following the threads here and on iCSP, I just haven't had a moment to post anything suitably pithy yet this week... and in fairness it would not be anything different to the points that others are very clearly making. But I know that's not the point - as we need to make it clear that these are the opinions of many, not just a cranky few... which is how it will be painted if we don't get lots of voices pitching in.
All the best,
Kirsty

I will also nominate you for Council Elaine. I emailed you last week so think you have my address, but if not post on here and I’ll email again x

this is an aside but I just wanted to highlight the challenges of discussions around trans when there is a possibility that some who are very vocal about trans rights may also have black and white thinking styles that can mean it's difficult to acknowledge differences in view points. Are autism and gender dysphoria linked? This professor thinks so (archive.ph) on another aside, my husband resigned from the board of another chartered profession organisation (not healthcare) last year (which he'd been involved with for many years as he's well-known in his field) in part because he was feeling like LGBTQ+ issues were hijacking other aspects and as a white 50's male he could no longer contribute effectively....so its something that perhaps is affecting other professional bodies too.

I agree that all bodies are captured.
the autism link is established in children, not yet in adults?

@stealtheatingtunnocks there is also research to show gender diverse adults more likely to be autistic .https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/largest-study-to-date-confirms-overlap-between-autism-and-gender-diversity/ Also more likely to be diagnosed with certain mental health conditions including depression, schizophrenia and ADHD. Ex-mental health physio ,so I’m really interested in the whys and wherefores and how gender identity has become such a hot potato over the past few years.

Thank you. I think there is probably the influence of ND on both sides of the argument, but the evidence only supports one and I think there is bullying over gender at the CSP

michael Foran is an academic lawyer and makes a good point on Twitter about instititions handling professionals who speak up. https://x.com/michaelpforan/status/1782008449317970337?s=46

Comments have now been closed on the icsp thread due to it being a week old apparently and no one available to moderate it

Noticed that; was going to comment on the ludicrous sentence below
‘So, although it would have seemed inconceivable a few years ago, it is now possible to be both male and female at the same time.’
Still waiting for the Nobel prise winning evidence that shows that you can not only change sex, but you can be both at the same time.