Child contact with open police investigation

[Robynfaith198]

Looking for some advice. I went to the police early last year after separating from my ex of 12 years. The relationship was severely abusive, involving coercive control, financial abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, strangulation, verbal and emotional abuse. He was arrested for numerous DV related offences & the police investigation is still ongoing. He was initially bailed, and now has been released under investigation but still told not to contact me, come near me etc whilst the investigation is still progressing.

I am 36, we share 3 children together ages 9, 7 and 3. The children unfortunately were subjected to a lot of the abuse and witnessed loads :( ! Slowly with the help of a school councillor, they have made huge progress, are so much happier - almost relieved and behaviour / emotions have improved hugely - which has been noticeable to family and friends. I was advised by social services and DV charities to stop contact as he was not bothering, and just wait to see if he took me to family court.

Whilst on bail, he then eventually demanded the bail conditions were varied so he could have contact with the children. This variation was agreed by the court 13 months ago, but the court stated he needed to contact me via a solicitor only. He didn't ever act on this, didn't bother to contact me via a solicitor etc therefore family court didn't happen. He has not paid a single penny for the children since he left, I have covered everything financially.

Over an entire year has passed, he has now been released under investigation, but advised not to contact me and basically still leave me alone whilst the investigation continues. Two weeks ago, he contacted me basically saying he wanted to put in place arrangements to see the children, and for me to advise dates and times that would suit my schedule. The relationship the children had with him was not great prior to us splitting anyway because they never knew whether they were coming or going, what mood he would be in and were walking on eggshells for the next time he was going to kick off. He constantly played mind games with them, they were so nervous, it was awful! He was not home regularly so I was basically their primary carer anyway. I have been advised again by a DV charity / support worker to not respond to the contact especially whilst a police investigation is going on. The effect he has on my children is huge and I have massive safeguarding concerns (I obviously cannot go into in depth detail on those because of the ongoing investigation).

Does anybody have any advice? If he opened a family court case whilst he is under investigation with the police and potentially in a lot of trouble - would he still be able to proceed with family court etc? Any advice would be highly appreciated as all I want to do is protect my little angels right now!

Thank you!

Ask your DV charity for advice, but I think you should wait for him to take you to court for contact.

I think you have two options here

1. Ignore him, and see if he has the balls to take it to the family court given that he didn't bother to apply while he had permission to do so via solicitors and he continues to be under investigation. You know him and you know whether he would actually bother.

2. Apply for a non molestation order on the basis that he left you alone while he was on bail and as soon as he was RUI he has resumed pestering you, so this is post-separation abuse using the threat of court as a vehicle of abuse and not because he actually wants to see the kids (because if he did, he'd have taken the option of applying for contact via solicitors in the first place)

@WiggyPig Thank you! He is so selfish, part of me would be shocked if he would even spend the money on court. It takes such a long time from my understanding too and by that time, the criminal court case could have escalated etc.

You are so right and this was my argument in my head earlier - if he was that bothered, why didn't he act on it immediately last year when he was given the variation of bail conditions so he could contact me via a solicitor. He went through all that to get it varied and then didn't bother. It's as though he wants to frighten me rather than actually see the children!

Yes, he isn't interested in the children, he is interested in frightening you and making sure that you spend all your spare time worrying about him instead of getting on with your life. The family court call it "post separation abuse."

Think about how you would feel if your children were suddenly taken from you. Would you chase up every ends of the earth to get them back - the court, the police, whatever you could? Or would you just ignore it for a year until you got some better bail conditions and then threaten your ex? My guess is that you would have moved heaven and earth to sort that out - and the fact that he wasn't interested for a year speaks volumes.

Can you chase up the police and ask them (more politely than I would) what the fuck they think they're doing putting this into RUI. I would actually complain about that - they have a complainant who is willing to give evidence, there are children involved, and they're just putting it on ice for what? That's absolutely outrageous.

If he does apply to court for contact then Cafcass will be required to give a safeguarding letter and it will indicate that he is still RUI for domestic abuse, so in any court I've ever encountered, he wouldn't get interim contact pending the final hearing even if he did apply.

@WiggyPig thank you so much this has really reassured me.

Exactly that - you are right! I would move mountains to get my children back - but he just did not bother. The opportunity was there when he demanded his bail was varied and he didn't bother taking it. Over a year later, after nothing; no financial help - he pipes up!

I did wander what would happen if he applied for court. Would my evidence I have given to police / doctors records / things children have disclosed to school be taken into account? Also the fact he is still under police investigation for domestic violence related offences surely would be taken into account?! Along with the fact the children have not seen him in over a year, and even previous to that they only saw him at weekends when we were together due to work etc. The weekends they did see him when he would come home, were hell on earth!!!

Contact woman’s aid. They can advise you and help you to negotiate court system and apply for legal aid if necessary. All contact should be arranged through court. If he is given access it needs to be supervised and safer in a contact centre. The children’s feelings need taken into account and specialist child protection officers can speak to them and advise. Ensure school and nursery are aware that only you or a named family member are allowed to collect the children. Good luck with this and well done for leaving this low life. Best thing you could have done.

@MotherJessAndKittens thank you so much! Schools are already aware about the situation / collection etc. I will reach out to woman’s aid tomorrow and see what they suggest. The children wouldn’t happily go with him anyway - they haven’t ever spent time with him, without me - even when we were together. And now the lack of contact etc - they wouldn’t feel comfortable or safe going with him. To be honest, in the last year and a half - the youngest hasn’t even mentioned him, the other two have spoken of him maximum 5 times in that time, and that was mainly surrounding trauma etc and wanting reassurance he wasn’t coming back to the home.

As a senior police officer in a domestic abuse unit i just wanted to say how much I admire your bravery and courage in what must have been a super difficult time. Have you got an IDVA? I would get a non molestation order and include the children in that. I would accept, and be clear, that your starting point is 'no contact' and dont budge from that unless legally required to. Have you gone to the CMS?

And re family court. They will contact the police and ask for permission to disclose details of the open investigation. We will normally allow full disclosure (sometimes there may be sensitive elements or tactics used within an investigation that we may withhold but for DA that is less likely). It is highly unlikely in the circumstances as you portray them that he would get any meaningful unsupervised contact. That's assuming he even starts a court process in the first place. Keep doing you, live your life, you've taken all the power back from him with your focus and commitment to your children and you independence. Leave him to do him.

@Desmondo2021 thank you so much that is so kind. It’s a miracle I’m still here and upright, but I’m on a much better road now.

I do have an IDVA. I will discuss with her next week and see what she suggests - she’s a great support for me but sometimes it’s really good to seek support on here from people who have been through it / like yourself in the industry.

I am unable to go to CMS. He refuses to pay for all 3 children, he’s self employed and definitely fiddles his income so it looks like he earns nothing. His lifestyle says otherwise but I have no proof of it - so yeah he’s basically not paid a penny. I’m working my arse off to try and cover everything and give them what they need.

@Desmondo2021 thank you SO much. You are so kind and that’s made my morning brighter. Sometimes that’s all I need to hear to put me back on the correct road!

The investigation is still very much progressing / ongoing. The updates they have given me have been positive and it’s moving as it should be. My children have disclosed things to school too so I’m presuming all that would go in my favour along with the fact he is still under investigation and the fact he could have bothered last year when his bail was varied but chose not to. If he was really fussed about his kids, he’d have been fussed back then / cared about their wellbeing and if they had everything they needed but it’s taken him MONTHS!

The case / circumstances are actually worse than I’ve portrayed on here because obviously I have to be careful what I put on here to safeguard myself but yeah things are a lot worse case wise.

I was controlled for SO long in every aspect of my life, so sometimes I find it hard to remember I’m in control now.

Why cant you go to the CMS?

They can investigate if his lifestyle is incompatible with his income AND you can report him to HMRC

I have (and am having) experience of this. Yes he can get contact, it may be supervised or the judge will ignore any abuse towards you and say it can be unsupervised.

Mine has been supervised and we've been in court for coming up 5 years at this point. The judge does not care. You need a really really good barrister, not a random one from a nearby practice. When I did not yet have one, a previous judge made an illegal gag order against me, and I didn't know it was illegal until I found a barrister.

You have my utmost sympathy. Family court, in my opinion, does not care about children and if they are upset around contact you will be blamed even if it's a juatifke reason. I hope your hearings go more smoothly than mine. Document everything, record everything, contact social services for support, they are surprisingly helpful and it will help in the long run.

Just out of interest - does anybody have any idea on a rough cost it would be for family court from start to finish? Are we talking thousands?

I am trying to work out if he will even bother taking me to family court - he is money orientated and prefers to spend his money on himself! The likelihood of him following it through if it is going to cost him LOADS is very slim!

Any idea anybody can give would be great! x

If he does it himself not much.

If he gest Solicitors then costs will rapidly mount up.

Thank you everyone for your comments so far. Have a further question so hopefully somebody sees this 🥰

If I choose not to respond to the unwanted contact I mentioned above - and then he chooses to take me to family court, could the fact that I’ve not responded to his contact be held against me? Like could he say I’ve alienated the children for example because I haven’t responded to the contact he has made? Just trying to work out what’s best to do response wise!! I don’t want to put myself at any risk of it being held against me! Obviously contact was stopped because of the circumstances of him being arrested and my safeguarding concerns surrounding the DV and abuse involving the children and what they witnessed! X

Similar. Still ongoing police investigation. Currently at £99,500 for solicitors and barristers. Investigation likely another 4 months with anor hearing possibly two before a 5 or 6 day fact find. I won't make it until the end as I will run out of funds. I am about to lose my job and in rented. He is in fully owned house that i initially bought with me paying bills (will pull plug as can no longer afford to pay for 2 households) plus paying for dc and after school clubs so i can work . He won't work. Yet he's hard done by with court bending over to ensure it's fair whilst I use my dad's inheritance to pay for legal fees. And I pay for prep of all court bundles as he is unrepresented or any time he moans about me not paying for his parking fine or whatever he moans about with his mental health or human rights that he writes to my solicitors about and i get charged for. No worry about his children though.

Had a bad day rant over. Unless you qualify for legal aid or have big pockets family court is expensive. If you have the inclination and time or good mackenzie friend it's cheaper.

I think now that he is released under investigation your best bet is to get a non molestation order and stipulate within that that all child related contact must be done by a specialist app (they do exist) or through a third party. Your idva will be super experienced with child access related contact issues. With his controlling and abusive background I wouldn't be surprised if his desire to contact the children when he doesn't get the enjoyable (to him) element of still being able to use it as a control tactic diminishes rapidly. But you cant be accused of blocking his contact.

Just refreshed myself on your situation (should have done that before my last post). In the circumstances I definitely dont think you will be judged for not replying. Potentially send him one message that tells him what he needs to do re the kids (contact app, third party, second mobile you will only switch on at a set time) and make it clear you aren't replying to anything at all over and above that and if he doesn't accept your terms to get a solicitor. Then stick to it.

And yes, YOU are in control now. You brave wonderful woman and mother you!

@Desmondo2021thank you so much.

Spoke to a solicitor today and they advised me I wouldn’t be judged in this situation for not responding. She said I could respond via a solicitor but that may then open up a whole load of communication through solicitors which may then lead to him pursuing child contact. She said given the situation with the criminal proceedings going on, she would be inclined to not respond, ultimately he knows what he needs to do to pursue contact because of when he has his bail varied - and he hasn’t done it! I don’t deem contact with the children to be safe after the abuse they’ve witnessed and also the abuse they have unfortunately experienced from him - therefore I will leave the ball in his court type thing. Everything has been reported with social services eg my safeguarding concerns etc. The solicitor said I’ve stopped contact for safeguarding concerns which is very valid and I’m entitled to do that and the onus is on him to regain contact. She reminded me that stopping contact due to safeguard is very different to alienating a child, therefore he would struggle to accuse me of that!

She said wait and see what the result is from the criminal proceedings and go from there. Hopefully I’m close to the case going to CPS now 🤞🤞

I feel very invested in your journey so please do keep updating as things go on!

@Desmondo2021thank you so much I most definitely will - hopefully I’ll be back with good news sometime soon!

Sorry you’re going through this Op.
any police officers on here - why on earth does it take 18 months to investigate?? What are they investigating??

Going through similar and following this closely. Rooting for you OP.

Super fair question. Investigations do take forever. So theres lots of factors which contribute to this. Firstly high workloads and not enough cops. The DA investigators in my team carry about 20 investigations each and 3 dedicated workload days a month to progress enquiries, take statements etc. The rest of the time they are processing new prisoners and managing the live DA demand. If there is phone download work to retrieve evidence (this will apply in most course of conduct offences) then the waiting times for that to be returned is over a year. All DA has to go to CPS for final charging decisions and jobs will often be finished by Police and sit with CPS For months. Some vulnerable victims need specially trained interviewers and weeks can go by before the officer is able to identify a colleague with the necessary qualification AND capacity to arrange these appts. Or we need medical records which take weeks to come back. Or third party material, ie social services records. Then the file build itself, in 'not guilty' cases every document has to be checked and have all personal info redacted, in big cases this can be thousands of documents. That's a whistle stop tour. Its certainly not cos my cops are lazy and crap!!! Police bail can be up to 9 months with extra authorities and the majority of investigations do get done well within this.