Divorce agreement - different lawyer advise how I choose

[Whoknowshere]

Sorry for long post but I need some help.
My soon to be ex- husband cheated on me at least with two different women, basically disappearing from me and my two daughters life (7 and 10yo) for the past year an a half.
He travelled for work basically every week, he can do that easily with his job instead of sending people from his team, extending the travel to weekends a loads of time.
I then discovered that sometimes he was not travelling but he was at his mistress house in the city. We had a bit of couple counselling and I hoped it was a fling but we stopped as he did not want anymore and now I just discovered another relationship with another woman, so I will be starting divorce proceedings soon. What is worst on top of the cheating is that he does not tell me plans till last minute, so he says he comes back Friday night from travel, then he texts me he missed his flight and I don’t know when he is back on Saturday till he comes at home. This is causing me a lot of anxiety and I think to the kids too although I try to cover it up with them saying he is looking for a new flight, he stuck somewhere etc etc
i have been talking to a few divorce lawyers and their advice is very different. One lawyer tells me I will be entitled to child maintenance and probably my own maintenance as our income is very much different - I work full time but he earns 6 times more than me so once divorced I won’t be able to keep the same lifestyle for me and the kids. Also I did not progress in my career as I am doing all the childcare and I have been constrained on the roles I could get, while of course he works like if he has no family, travel dinners events early in the morning late in the evening never asking half a day off for any kid activity etc so while we have the same qualifications and we started with the same salary I am now Middle manager and he is very very senior. So this lawyers says I will be entitled to some compensation for that.
I spoke to another lawyer who says it’s 50-50 on house and pension and that’s it, it will super hard for me to ask for anything else. (unfortunately we have a huge mortgage and he has not much pension as he has been moving some savings abroad for years and he spends a lot every month on sport cars, expensive clothes, plastic surgery, toys like £7k of bike etc so really although he is a high earner he has little savings in the uk and a small pension and we have no other property other than the house with a huge 70% mortgage to still pay)
the first lawyer also tells me that he has a duty versus his daughters so he will need to see them regularly. The judge will probably order him to stay with them every other weekend and every other holidays. This would be great so I can get a break - I have been solo parenting every single day for 2 years now and I am exhausted - and also for kids who adore him and really really would love to have some time with him, especially the eldest does everything for him when he is at home, which is heartbreaking. the other lawyer tells me there is no such thing and he might decide to disappear from their life and see them when he likes. I know he would love that so he can decide last minute and just mess all my plans and he can cancel last minute any plan which I know will destroy the kids.
who is right? How can 2 lawyers advise me so differently? They are so expensive and I really don’t want to pay for a third one.
do I select the lawyer who tells me I have more rights and fights for me or are they just after a long separation battle to get more money? Do I get with the lawyer who says the kids and I are entitled to the minimum so it is a Quick divorce but ofc my life would be way way worst for the kids practically (small house, no holidays, looking at each pound) and emotionally with no father, which I am very very worried about, especially for my eldest who adores him and she is very very fragile psychologically (and I don’t have money to support her for counselling while now he is paying for it).
any experience?

How much is the equity in the family home?

How much do you need to rehouse yourself - ie - your deposit and what's your maximum mortgage capacity to borrow and to afford to pay as your mortgage payment each month?

Depending on those answers you may get more than half the equity in the family home on the basis of your reasonable need and because your spousal maintenance claim is being paid off by your getting a bigger share of the equity.

If you get half the equity , could you rehouse yourself and pay the mortgage and reasonable bills with your salary , with child support , top up court ordered child support ( as he is a high earner) and time limited spousal maintenance because he earns 6 times more than you (but can't easily buy off your maintenance claim because he has limited assets so you might possibly get maintenance )

You need good mortgage advice to understand your housing options as that will tell you how hard you mag need to fight for more than 50% of the house and pension.

Ultimately the equity and maintenance argument may not be worthwhile if the 30% equity is going to be eaten up in lawyer's fees.

You can't force him to see the kids under UK law.

If you want a specialist family law solicitor in London Family Law in Partnership would be a good option but pricy.

It is correct that of he is over the threshold, child maintenance will need to be agreed in court.

Judges nowadays favour clean breaks. As such, spousal maintenance is usually only considered if there is not enough to meet the needs amongst the assets to be divided and income from the resident parent. Lifestyle might be taken into consideration but its not high on the list. Spousal maintenance might also be considered only for a couple of years only.

In terms of chosing a solicitor, you need to weigh what you can get by paying one who will keep.fighting for you and what you might get out of it. Solicitors costs mount very quickly and their fees might come close to what extra you might get from ongoing fighting. Then there's the stress of it to consider.

They've explained the CMS thing really badly.

CMS will give you a calculation, but it'll be based on their upper ceiling.

I'd be earns over that then you will want to go to court for an agreement based on his actual salary.

CMS will do it, but if he earns over their limit and you don't go to court you'll miss out on money

I am more interested if I can make him spend time with the kids regularly so they see me and I get some time to build up my life

The simple answer is no, you can't.

Because he was a controlling dickhead my ex went to court and got an order saying he had our girls three weekends of four and half the holidays. Plus special occasions like Father's Day and his birthday.

Despite putting us all through that process he then saw them eight times in 3 years. I then went to get the order varied and he fought for, and won, EOW and half holidays. He saw the children 5 times in the next 3 years.

Nothing and nobody can force and unwilling parent to see their child.

That’s what I am finding more and more shocking. The unfairness of the uk legal system and the fact no one says anything.
one partner, usual the father, can walk away, continue their career, keep on earning as they had no kids, pay some maintenance that is less of what they paid before by a big fraction while the other parents has to care for everything, been limited career wise as basically as single parent and be worst off.. it is just crazy and again it is not like that in other countries where spose maintenance is actually to compensate for the lack of earning and the unpaid work of child care.

That’s why I am lost, how much I need to fight, how much I will waste money on lawyers, it is worth it. It is such a grey area and I feel lost on what to do. I also have no one to talk to so I would need to go through the process totally alone. No family in this country to support and really no friends.

While much of this seems unfair to you the financial agreement should aim to equalise your situation going forward eg your pension will be set against his and shared . There are forms to be filled up . Read this link. You sound as if you can't be bothered to do any of the groundwork which is madness. Channel your energy into seeking a good outcome.

https://www.gov.uk/money-property-when-relationship-ends/get-court-to-decide You need to educate yourself on the stages .

@Whoknowshere

OP - it all depends on specifics and numbers - but if his earnings are 6 times of yours - your will either get a larger share of assets - or will get a term-limited spousal support, especially since he is considered a high earner - being above CMS threshold. And financially those are comparable outcomes, as a larger share of assets gives you more money today - vs spousal, that is less sure, as his income can change.

As to how the judge will decide on child maintenance - it will go under Schedule 1 of Child's Act 1989. You will fill out a spreadsheet with all kid's current expenses classified into categories. (took me a while to complete but was worth it) Then judge would look at it and at your H's income and make a ruling on what makes sense, given all of your needs and available income.
You and your H would also fill out your assessment of your individual needs.
People usually make their needs higher, knowing that judge would take them down.

In my case - my "needs" were assessed to be a bit below what I submitted. My kids' needs stayed at my submission - so judge awarded kids maintenance and spousal - until the kids finish university. And my career was sacrificed to raise the kids and support the H. We shared assets 50/50.
A friend who is a family court judge from another part of England said - that where she is - I'd have gotten a larger share of assets instead. Which would have been fine as well.

So - personally I say - fight. At least at the start. And manage your solicitors - don't email too often, or call - as they charge per interaction. Collect your quesitons and do a bit of own research. Also - check their bills - and question. They sometimes get a little liberal with billing - in my case - I had to push back and question why certain things were billed a certain way, as some activities didn't need to take as long, for e.g.

You won’t automatically get a higher share of assets or spousal. If there is enough to provide each party at 59:60 and you earn a sajary good enough you may get 50:50 and no spousal. But it depends on what there is and what you earn, you will get high rate cms.

educate yourself on the process and points of divorce and chose a laywer you can get on with.

you could rack up bills in the tens of thousands so understand what there is and how far disconnected you and ex are, eg if you want 60% of assets and he’s offering 55% don’t spend 60k to get 30k back etc.

Supposedly, whether you would get spousal maintenance or not might also depends on the region, some parts of England are more favourable of it than others!

What is "an average manager salary" ?
My guess is it's near £60k for someone in London?

The amount matters because £60k plus a bit chunk of assets from the marriage split could well be enough to sustain a decent lifestyle. Is why the actual split might indeed be about 50:50 of all existing assets.

England is not "other countries" so not helpful to think about their rules or norms.

I'm afraid the "optimistic" lawyer will just end up disappointing OP and using lots of OP's money to achieve little more than the "realistic" lawyer expects to get.

I love a good soap opera so I hope OP keeps us updated.

The issue is I do have a good salary but we basically have no assets. I have no savings, we put all our savings in buying the house and renovating it, our pensions are similar, I think I have a bit more. We basically have £400k value on our house, rest is a huge mortgage, that he pays for the majority thanks to his salary. I should add that he only got this big salary 5 years ago when he managed to get a job in finance that’s why we were never able to really save much before and we only bought our house 2 years ago as it took us ages to save for the deposit so I will end up with £200k when we sell which is not near enough for a deposit for a flat in my area, so I will need to rent. Rent for a 2 bedroom in the area we live is around £2000 per month, so I with expenses be left with very little. Doing the maths I won’t be able to afford holidays just on my salary alone, will live month to month. Which is btw what I do now but he covers for large part of the mortgage, school fees, kids clubs, their clothes and all holidays.
his salary is also constantly growing as he travels all the time, out for breakfast dinners networking events etc while I am stalling as I am doing no networking and I am just flat out all the time with all the rest I am doing being a single parent, the whole house and kid organisation falls on me, he just pays.
so hopefully I will get a good child maintenance to do a bit better but I am worried about that too.

Alas, some of this will come down to tactics and what you each want to achieve. Anyone who is in a hurry will do worse than someone more patient.

The key legal question is whether his higher earnings may be regarded as a marital asset, or not. If the high salary is quite recent, it may be harder to link to any career sacrifice you may have made.

Spousal maintenance does exist still, and I believe is more commonly ordered in London. It might be possible but time limited.

Have you opened discussions about what each expects to happen with the split?

As others have said, lawyer #1 is completely deluded if they think a parent can be ordered to have contact. One would hope the parent would be demanding it, however.

his career success has been highly enabled by my career sacrifice. We basically started together, we went on at the same pace, his job asked him to relocate for a few years and I found a job in the new country with a step back in career, we then moved back and I was two levels below him, with a salary difference of £30 a year, then I got pregnant, then I could not travel anymore and my career stalled while he got promotion after promotion. He was then offered a job in finance when kids were small which entailed him travelling every week Monday, sometimes Sunday night, till Thursday or Friday, which meant I have been solo parenting all the time. If I can convince a judge I don’t know but I am 100% sure that if I had a spouse mainly at home who would have allowed me to travel the odd days, go to conferences, some dinners etc it would have made loads of difference in my career. Without counting being always exhausted, which did not allow me to go the extra mile, above and beyond what is the minimum expected, which in my industry is a must for career.
the second lawyer told me to forget about it as I won’t prove it and no one cares. The first told to fight as I will get spose maintenance…

You have exactly the same choices as him, legally. Nobody can force you to look after the children any more than they can force him.

So what do you and him earn ?

if you earn 60 and he earns 360 then you’ll rage home 3500 k pluggers 3k plus cns. That’s income if 6.5k per month equivalent to c130k salary. Plus with 200k equity you’re not destitute.

earnings are key to understand but you’re not stating what they are

Sadly this is the case for many women who have been trailing spouses but you will reap the reward with the pension. Divorce does make people poorer as your pot will be split.

Actually he will make him better off. He is now paying a big chunk of a huge mortgage, plus holidays for a family plus loads of the kids bills, activities etc. I contribute around 30% of the household expenses, he pays 70%. I am still left with no savings end of month, while he has a lot of disposable income, which he does not save unfortunately, but he spends in loads of toys, this year he got a Porsche, last year a very very expensive watch, he buys only designer clothes, all his sport gear is top quality and branded, expensive bike, bike accessories, and obviously the trips and presents to the OW, I found a receipt for a bracelet worth £3000 and the proof he has given her a credit card, so not even sure how much she is spending on that one, but I suspect from some messages I caught glimpse of he is also paying her rent… plus all the concerts and for example he just got the tickets to Wimbledon with the Michelin restaurant experience. I won’t actually be surprised if it turns out he has debts on his credit card, as when I add up his lifestyle I can’t even think he can totally afford it on such a salary.
anyway I can’t control what he does with the money he earns but the fact he is not saving and splashing so much has been one of the biggest cause of our rows, which ofc made me the heavy and whining wife while he needs a fun e light person to have fun with..
so if I can’t get spose maintenance and he sends some child maintenance, let’s see even £3k it will be a deal for him.. which is probably why he is now seeking a divorce

@Whoknowsherewhen you took a step back in your career to enable his, did you actually talk about what this means? And did the fact he was happy to be away from his family so much not say anything to you before this stage?
I know no point looking backwards but there are so many women who have put themselves in your situation. I did too but ensured my career goals were also supported (I had a career that could be done part time). In addition, my DH hates being away from the family so will come home once his overseas work is done and try his best to avoid being away at weekends.

as for lawyers Ursula Dangher was recommended previously for a friend but she didn’t go ahead with the divorce. I think she worked for Child and Co but you can look her up

I’m not in the UK but ideally I think you’d want to get as much upfront as you can in an out of court settlement with a little as possible coming on a monthly basis. So if he gave you the paid off house in return for as little/no maintenance that is what I’d aim for. It makes your monthly more affordable and is a known quantity for you and him. Would this work for you?

You need to work out what would work best for you and that he will accept. Would moving back to Switzerland (?) work best for you? Would he accept it? Slightly forget about the lawyers propositions work out what you need first. And what he needs.

He definitely can't be forced to see his kids but assuming he actually wants to see them sometimes he can be required to keep to a reliable schedule - if he were to agree to a schedule and then largely not fulfil it I am pretty sure you can get the schedule terminated (but that may not get you what you want i.e. some reliable time off). With my friends who are divorced they definitely get played around by their ex on these things (last minute changes etc) but its still better than what you have now. In terms of finances, I'd be shocked if given the difference in earning power you didn't get some support on top of child maintenance if you are willing to take it to court (which is expensive) or even mediation - they would probably fulfil this through a larger share of current assets (it's called a "clean break") rather than ongoing spousal maintenance - the underlying law hasn't changed but the solution is now usually to try and give more assets up front than to have someone pay spousal maintenance for life.

In terms of advice - I'd certainly try fighting for spousal maintenance at first and the leverage that for more of the assets /better child maintenance through negotiation. You won't end up in a "fair" situation but it would be strange not to at least leverage the law to get you something. But I would go assuming that you will end up negotiating out of court and not getting everything you would want/legally be entitled to.

No one on the internet can tell you what you’ll get in the divorce because we don’t have all the info. From the info you’ve given it sounds like you’ve had a nice lifestyle but you also have not much savings and a lot of debt at least in the form of a large mortgage.

His infidelity is irrelevant to the financial split.

You and the court also can’t make him spend time with his kids. There is no such thing as a “court order to make him see them at weekends”. The court can make an order that makes it possible for him to do so, but if he doesn’t turn up, no one can make him do that. So get ready for the unreliability to continue.

I’m divorced from a very high earning spouse. We didn’t have any savings left by the time the financial deal was done, as she’d spent them all. That was not factored in as relevant. We had broadly similar pensions at the time but she earned about £400k more than me and I was doing all the childcare and had made the career sacrifices. I got very slightly more than 50% of the equity in the house, plus a capitalised sum to cover 15 months of spousal maintenance which was designed to give me that time to boost my career a bit (in the event I got a better job in that time).

I wouldn’t choose a lawyer on the basis of whose advice you “like” best. The bottom line is that the starting point is 50/50 and even if he is a high earner, maintaining your previous lifestyle is not going to happen unless he’s a multi millionaire. Lifestyles go down after divorce. Mine has, but I’m still living a decent life and I’m no longer married to someone who cheated on me.

I think you need a bit of a reality check.

without op giving salary details or asset values it’s impossible to guide. Not sure why op don’t state these but up to her