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Divorce/separation

Here you'll find divorce help and support from other Mners. For legal advice, you may find Advice Now guides useful.

Ex refusing to allow child abroad

34 replies

DeeDee20 · 29/09/2023 11:09

Hello,
please can I get some advice. My long term partner and I are separating. Which he is in denial about. We have a joint mortgage and baby. He is refusing mediation, to sell the house, everything.
I have a family wedding abroad for a few days coming up. He is saying I can’t take the baby. I’m planning to take his birth certificate. We are there 4 days. I know he can stop me if he goes to court but I doubt he knows this and would actually do it. I think he’s just lashing out. Has any one been abroad with their child and don’t share the same surname without a written note from the farther? Thank you.

OP posts:
HowcanIhelp123 · 29/09/2023 11:15

You need his permission to go if he has parental responsibility. You can take him to court for a specific issues order to get permission to go from the court though if he won't give it. He can also try for a prohibitive steps order to stop you but especially if you have majority care and won't affect his contact the courts will just think he's a knobhead.

EllaMaeve · 29/09/2023 11:18

Do you have family abroad? Is there a concern that you might not return?

BoohooWoohoo · 29/09/2023 11:19

He can stop you going abroad forever but a court would allow you to take the baby on holiday. Problem is you probably can't get a court date quickly enough.

Some countries are stricter than others about travelling without the other parent but you don't want to look like a kidnapper by doing it without his permission.

DeeDee20 · 29/09/2023 11:20

Yes I have family abroad in Europe. It’s for a wedding with my whole family. He was meant to come, we have a return ticket after 4 days.
haha yes he’s just being a knob head. It’s in a few weeks time. How long will it take to go through court?

OP posts:
Doggymummar · 29/09/2023 11:22

I would imagine it wouldn't get to court for a year or two, but I'm no expert

RecycleMePlease · 29/09/2023 11:22

Without a child arrangement order you need permission.

Having said this, I've travelled loads with my kids, one has my surname, one has their dads (my ex), and I've never been questioned (bizarrely, when travelling with ex we were questioned more than once!)

Make of that what you will.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 29/09/2023 11:22

Which country are you going to, some are stricter than others.

tescocreditcard · 29/09/2023 11:25

I think I'd chance it if the baby was young enough not to be disappointed if I was refused at the airport. Don't tell him you're going though.

GingerIsBest · 29/09/2023 11:26

Technically, he can stop you. On MN, you are going to be told it's essential that he gives permission etc etc and it is true that legally, you can't take the child against his will.

In real life however, it's not quite so clear cut and there are quite a few variables that might impact your decision on whether or not to risk it.

Where are you going? There are countries that will require his permission, in writing, before you are allowed into the country. There is no way to get around this unless you have a court order or something that says he doesn't have PR /he's dead etc but that's clearly not practical in this case. So if it's one of those countries, there's little you can do.

However, in most cases, travelling with the baby's birth certificate on which you are named as mother is sufficient - particularly if you are travelling within Europe. I'd say that you will be asked to show the birth certificate less than 50% of the time (weirdly, I have only ever been asked for the birth certificate on my return to the UK which I've always found a bit odd). It is quite common to be asked why you are travelling and why you are travelling alone.

I think the old patriachy actually also works in women's favour here as the sense I get is that there is less likely to be an assumption that you are kidnapping the child if you're the mother.

SIL's ex has threatened to refuse to allow her to take their DS a few times. She just goes anyway because she knows he's just using it to control her and is never actually going to contact the authorities. But it does add a level of stress to each and every trip.

DeeDee20 · 29/09/2023 11:27

unfortunately we live together still. I’ve told him I’m going with the baby and without him.
is there an emergency court process to this. I really can’t miss this wedding - he knows that so is punishing me by doing this. It’s all about control, not the actual wedding.
for permission does he just need to write a note?

OP posts:
DeeDee20 · 29/09/2023 11:31

@GingerIsBest yes this is what he doing to me. He can’t accept its over so is punishing me by not allowing us to the wedding.
we are going to malta. For 4 days. Return ticket with all my family. Then home back to nursery and then work

OP posts:
tescocreditcard · 29/09/2023 11:34

Could you forge a note? It's not like they know what his handwriting looks like.

Tell him you've cancelled all the wedding but because you are so upset about it you are spending the time having a uk mini break with a friend instead.

I assume the passport is in your possession.

Your gonna have to start being arseholian back to him and devious too.

WandaWonder · 29/09/2023 11:38

Do you mean passport not birth certificate?

GingerIsBest · 29/09/2023 11:41

Unless you think he might actually get off his butt to file a complaint against you, I would just go as it's Malta.

Here's an interesting legal blog post I found here

Reading this, it seems to me that to actively prevent you he would need to go to court.

It also appears that prevention is only about fears of child kidnapping rather than "I didn't give her permission to take my child on holiday" and it's specified that it's about a concern the child might be taken and not returned. In your case, that would obviously not be the case - you have return tickets, you have a mortgage and (I assume) a job in the UK. your family are in the UK. You can prove that there is a specific reason to go to Malta for a specific time period....

Go, have a good time, ignore him (although if part of the reason you're breaking up is because he has been financially, emotionally or physically abusive and/or controlling, I would consider leaving the day before and staying with family so that he doesn't have the opportunity to do something to sabotage the trip)

What can I do if my ex-partner has taken (or is planning to take) my child abroad - Part 2 - Family Law Partners

Second blog in this series about a child being taken abroad without consent. It explains the steps you should take if your ex-partner has (or you fear they might) take your child out of the country.

https://www.familylawpartners.co.uk/blog/can-ex-partner-taken-planning-take-child-abroad-part-2#:~:text=If%20you%20are%20concerned%20that,as%20a%20Prohibited%20Steps%20Order.

DeeDee20 · 29/09/2023 11:50

Thank you all so so much. So much! I will go and have a great time with my baby and supportive family.

OP posts:
DeeDee20 · 29/09/2023 11:53

@GingerIsBest thank you. There’s no way he’s going to put words in to action. I have mine and baby’s passprt and birth certificate. There’s no chance of knippaping.
I want him to be involved in baby’s life but at the moment it seems he just wants to punish me, using poor baby as a pawn

OP posts:
Lavenderosa · 29/09/2023 11:55

As he's living with you, I'd give the baby's birth certificate to your family asap so he can't take it.

GingerIsBest · 29/09/2023 11:57

Unfortunately, I think that's quite common.

I think your biggest risk is what he will do while you are gone. Sorry to be so negative and I don't know what precipitated your break up, but that would be my concern. I'd recommend locking away (or taking to a family member's house) anything particularly valuable, personal or sentimental before you leave.

I also wouldn't be surprised if he turns up at the airport expecting to come with you as you have a ticket for him. It might be worth seeing if you can cancel that ticket so that the option is removed from him.

Doyoumind · 29/09/2023 12:01

I would risk it. I've travelled abroad with DC with different surname to mine. I do have a court order so can travel without permission but have never been asked to show it. They've asked my relation to them and that's it.

Get the birth certificate, passport and any other important documentation or things you don't want him to get to while you're away somewhere safe with a family member.

Dogsitterwoes · 29/09/2023 12:01

Does baby have your surname or his? I think it's more likely to be questioned if baby's name is different to yours.

DeeDee20 · 29/09/2023 12:11

The baby has his name which is different to mine. We arent married. Maybe after this I can get a court order to travel without permission.
after 10 yrs together I’ve had enough of his gas lighting and constant negativity, laziness etc. he has narcissistic traits too. I think he thought I would never leave but now I think he’s in financial trouble and of course that’s my fault too. He’s lashing out and trying to punish me through the baby because he knows it hurts me. I just hope court will see this as he doesn’t want to do mediation etc. we need to split the house/ child care etc

OP posts:
Enderunicorn · 29/09/2023 12:25

How unpleasant is he? Would he call the police and tell them he thinks you are kidnapping baby and taking them to Malta? Even if you could get eventually show that isn't the case he could cause you to miss your flight or the wedding while things are sorted out.

thiswasabadone · 29/09/2023 12:29

Okay him at his own game

Say to him that you need this break to clear your head and to make sure your making the right decision. At the moment you want to 100 percent break up but a few days away and lido ting your mood will allow you to make sure you are or are not making the right decision - which to be fair is probably true z tell him you need this and if he ever lived you then he would see that.

LemonTT · 29/09/2023 12:35

Enderunicorn · 29/09/2023 12:25

How unpleasant is he? Would he call the police and tell them he thinks you are kidnapping baby and taking them to Malta? Even if you could get eventually show that isn't the case he could cause you to miss your flight or the wedding while things are sorted out.

Unfortunately this is the real risk. I know people it happened to. They had the other parent’s supposed agreement on holiday with the children. Regular summer holiday taken every year. But that year when they got to the airport to go they were detained and missed the flight. Because the other parent reported kidnapping. I think they eventually got away because calls to local police confirmed this was part of a pattern of abusive behaviour that they were aware of.

It was malicious and one of many incidents they had to deal with before they essentially had full custody and the children stopped seeing or speaking to the other parent.

TiredButDancing · 29/09/2023 12:37

DeeDee20 · 29/09/2023 12:11

The baby has his name which is different to mine. We arent married. Maybe after this I can get a court order to travel without permission.
after 10 yrs together I’ve had enough of his gas lighting and constant negativity, laziness etc. he has narcissistic traits too. I think he thought I would never leave but now I think he’s in financial trouble and of course that’s my fault too. He’s lashing out and trying to punish me through the baby because he knows it hurts me. I just hope court will see this as he doesn’t want to do mediation etc. we need to split the house/ child care etc

I strongly recommend that when you return you get on top of this. Find a solicitor and start proceedings asap. He sounds astonishingly like my exBIL. Thank god there was no mortgage involved, and even so, it took MONTHS to get him out of the rental accommodation even though he was not contributing financially in any meaningful way (his total contribution to the household was just 10% of the RENT. That's it).

He is still using DNs as a way to control and abuse her, years down the line. The biggest losers however are the DC, not her and not him.