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Divorce/separation

Here you'll find divorce help and support from other Mners. For legal advice, you may find Advice Now guides useful.

Fair Offer to ex DH

94 replies

Twiglett2 · 25/11/2022 13:54

Can anyone advise if this offer seems fair?

House vale £280k, mortgage £45k. I want to offer to pay off the mortgage and give him £60k

He is the higher earner, I work part time. We have 2 school age children (both over 10). He does not see them at all and has not for months. This is their choice and he's made zero effort to change the situation. He currently lives between his parents' and gf / affair partner's.

We had been together 19 years, lived together over 16 and this property is our marital home.

OP posts:
Potluck22 · 25/11/2022 16:50

Isnt the normal split around 60:40 of total assets. If you are lucky 70:30 in your favour

You need to calculate what that equates to from total pot of marital assets including pensions.

From personal experience its best to be fair as anything else can quickly become acrimonious and lead to court ultimately. If you want to avoid court then it's easy if your ex is reasonable- be reasonable yourself.

Twiglett2 · 25/11/2022 17:22

So disregarding any other possible assets etc. based purely on ex being the higher earner and me having the children 100% of the time. If he agreed to split the house 60/40 in my favour I'd give him £94k, but then I either have to take on or pay off the mortgage of £45k?

That just doesn't seem very fair to me as in total I'm paying out £139, which is almost 50% of the total value of the house.

OP posts:
ArcticSkewer · 25/11/2022 17:30

£280-£45 = the amount of money you actually own, in the form of a house.

Many women just have to sell the house and downsize. That may not seem fair but if you don't actually own enough/ have enough in savings then that's how it goes.

So your joint assets are £235k.

Once you've decided how to split that, you can see if you can afford to
-buy the rest of your house.
or need to
-downsize.

CrampMcBastard · 25/11/2022 17:31

The alternative is to sell the house.

You will then have approx £141k to be able to start again. (And he’ll have approx £94k to start again)

Twiglett2 · 25/11/2022 17:31

@CrampMcBastard

We haven't put the divorce in yet due to him ignoring all communication for months. I think he's now realised how much it will cost if we have to use solicitors for everything so he's proposed we try to agree ourselves.

I'd rather come to an agreement ourselves and get a solicitor to draft up something legally binding, like a separation agreement, and then do the divorce online at a later date. That way we won't need to complete Form E's, which I think is what he wants to avoid. He's self employed.

I doubt he has a pension or any significant assets and neither have I, but I really don't care if he has as long as we can agree on the house.

OP posts:
ArcticSkewer · 25/11/2022 17:33

He would want to avoid form E if he is hiding assets so if you ask for a 80:20 split he may agree as in reality he is still walking away with more.

infohere · 25/11/2022 17:45

Many couples divorcing are litigants in person (the majority).

Please see the links below for sources of information and advice.

As I understand it there are 2 aspects – Divorce and Financial Settlement.

To know what a fair split of assets is and to reach a financial settlement divorcing parties need to know what the assets of the marriage are, and what each asset is worth.

Look at a Form E. A long document in which each party sets out their assets, income, and financial needs. You can see in it the assets that are taken into consideration upon divorce and financial settlement, for example property (the former marital home), pensions, stocks and shares etc. It also lists the documents needed that show the value of assets for example CETVs (cash equivalent transfer values of pensions - which can be requested from pension providers).

To find out what some assets are worth an independent expert can be used. Property can be valued by an expert - estate agents, pensions by CETV and / or a pension on divorce expert (PODE) report and so on. It is important to decide what needs a valuation by an independent expert and factor in the costs of these. Pensions can be very valuable – equivalent or more than the value of the former martial home in some cases. Divorcing parties might hold different types of pensions (not like-for-like, so difficult to compare without an expert). Circumstances might be complex for example an age difference or pensions in payment. One party may have stayed at home to look after children.

After Form E there is the opportunity to exchange Questionnaires to gain missing information / valuations / evidence. Deficiencies can then be exchanged to collect any further missing financial information and evidence from each party. A solicitor's letter can be sent to request financial information. A Court Order can be sought to make sure a party provides missing financial information.

@AnnaMagnani and @silentpool made some useful comment on this in this thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/divorce_separation/4664756-what-do-i-need-to-do-about-our-pensions?reply=121093079
When splitting the assets of a marriage…
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1973/18/section/25 applies

The income, earning capacity, property, and other financial resource which each of the parties to the marriage has or is likely to have in the foreseeable future. As I understand it, first consideration is given to the welfare (while a minor) of any child of the family who has not yet attained the age of eighteen.

The needs of each divorcing party are taken into account and as I understand it 50 / 50 is the starting point – so unequal shares based on circumstances and needs is possible, for example 60 / 40.

These offer a free advice session about pensions on divorce and separation
www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/family-and-care/divorce-and-separation/divorce-or-dissolution-how-we-can-help-with-your-pension
Free advice line (busy so keep trying) rightsofwomen.org.uk
Guides on divorce and financial settlement
www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-apply-financial-order-without-help-lawyer

Pensions on divorce
www.sharingpensions.co.uk/penaudit3.htm
www.mediateuk.co.uk/the-ultimate-guide-to-pensions-on-divorce/
www.nuffieldfoundation.org/news/new-good-practice-guide-addresses-shortfall-in-understanding-of-how-to-treat-pensions-on-divorce
Valuation of pensions – pensions on divorce expert report
www.collinspensionactuaries.co.uk no relation – useful website
www.collinspensionactuaries.co.uk/pension-data-collection/ templates for information required

Legal advice should be sought.
This link gives you an indication of hourly rate for solicitors
www.gov.uk/guidance/solicitors-guideline-hourly-rates
Some organisations offer free advice from solicitors and barristers rightsofwomen.org.uk/get-advice/ On their FAQs page…”Our Legal Officers and Volunteer legal advisors are all solicitors and barristers”.
Some family solicitors offer an in initial free consultation and some a fixed fee
rather than hourly.
Some barristers can be directly instructed e.g., via Clerksroom Direct

Mediation
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/489125/family-mediation-leaflet-press.pdf
resolution.org.uk/looking-for-help/splitting-up/your-process-options-for-divorce-and-dissolution/hybrid-mediation/

Do look after the (older) woman you will become when negotiating a financial settlement.

Mumsnet suggest www.advicenow.org.uk/divorce-and-separation

infohere · 25/11/2022 17:50

www.pearsonlegal.co.uk/blog/news/why-women-could-lose-out-in-diy-divorce/

No fault divorce, diy divorce – both might seem appealing, potentially cheaper and possibly quicker, but don’t be deceived because when it comes to finances and pensions recent research indicates that it’s women who are likely to lose out.

Pensions and Divorce

The recent research from the University of Manchester Institute for Collaborative Research on Ageing and the Pensions Policy Institute, states that divorced men aged 55 to 64 have pension savings on average five times more than divorced women in the same age bracket.

And it’s a significant difference of up to £80,000 in some cases - so it would seem that what is perceived as the easy option is not always the best one for many women as divorced non-cohabiting men have average pension savings of around £100,000, in comparison to their female counterparts who have only £19,000.

“Online and no-fault divorce have certainly made things easier but there are pitfalls and there is a reason professional and trained divorce solicitors are still preferable than going it alone for many people, but especially as we see in this case women,” said divorce and family lawyer, Emma Kendall.

“Over and above the court dates which have to be met and making sure the paper work is filed properly. There is the overlooked financial orders and pension splitting arrangements to be sorted so that one half of the couple is not financially penalised when a marriage ends,” she added.

It has been possible for a number of years for separating couples to use internet services to submit their own legal paperwork for a divorce if the financial settlement is straightforward.
However, in the experience of family and divorce solicitors finances often get overlooked.

“Quite often people get obsessed by the family home as the major marital asset to be divided on divorce whilst for many couples it is actually pensions that count for more,” said Emma Kendall.

Pension Sharing Orders Fall

As if to prove a point we see that applications for pension sharing orders fell by 35 percent in the four years to 2021 according to Ministry of Justice figures, whilst during the same period there has been a 1.6 percent increase in divorces.

“Pension sharing orders will enable the spouse with a lower value of pension savings to be allocated a proportion of their ex-partner’s pension pot.
Often it is women who have left work to have children or taken part time jobs that lose out financially. But a good divorce solicitor will sort out the pensions and make sure everything is equal, the last thing my clients want when they divorce is to face a ruinous financial future,” said Emma

Twiglett2 · 25/11/2022 17:52

@ArcticSkewer

I don't think he'll expect me to be willing to accept 50/50 and I'm pretty sure he'll not take any less than 35% so I'm hoping to agree somewhere between those amounts.

What I can't seem to get my head around is what happens re the mortgage. I'd assumed (it seems wrongly) that if for example he agreed to take £112k which would be 40% of the total value he'd then pay the mortgage off and so be left with £67k. I'm now thinking maybe offer him £80k and I pay off the mortgage.

I suppose in theory I can try to get him to agree to whatever I like as long it's then checked over by both our solicitors and put into something legally binding?

OP posts:
amiold · 25/11/2022 17:53

Twiglett2 · 25/11/2022 17:52

@ArcticSkewer

I don't think he'll expect me to be willing to accept 50/50 and I'm pretty sure he'll not take any less than 35% so I'm hoping to agree somewhere between those amounts.

What I can't seem to get my head around is what happens re the mortgage. I'd assumed (it seems wrongly) that if for example he agreed to take £112k which would be 40% of the total value he'd then pay the mortgage off and so be left with £67k. I'm now thinking maybe offer him £80k and I pay off the mortgage.

I suppose in theory I can try to get him to agree to whatever I like as long it's then checked over by both our solicitors and put into something legally binding?

Why would he not expect 50/50? Have you paid more in?

infohere · 25/11/2022 17:55

Being a litigant in person
resolution.org.uk/looking-for-help/splitting-up/your-process-options-for-divorce-and-dissolution/representing-yourself-in-court-as-a-litigant-in-person/

In addition,
Solicitors and barristers can be engaged on a fixed fee retainer for certain tasks by litigants in person

Twiglett2 · 25/11/2022 17:56

@ArcticSkewer

"He would want to avoid form E if he is hiding assets so if you ask for a 80:20 split he may agree as in reality he is still walking away with more."

This is exactly what I'm hoping for, he knows I know he earns more than he says. I really don't care, or care about any possible pensions. But I'd like to use that knowledge to get as good a deal as possible.

OP posts:
infohere · 25/11/2022 17:56

unwatching thread now, good luck :)

DrMarciaFieldstone · 25/11/2022 18:00

How part-time are you? You’ll be expected to work substantially with kids over the age of 8. It’s not as easy as to say he earns more therefore I should get more.

50/50 is a base and its adjusted from there, but your split sounds extreme.

Him living with a gf isn’t a factor.

Twiglett2 · 25/11/2022 18:00

@amiold

For all the reason's I've previously mentioned. He's paid way more into it but that is irrelevant. He is the higher earner because I went part time when we had our first child. Even when I go back full time he will still earn more. I have always done over 80% of the childcare and now have our children all of the time.

50% is the starting point but then Section 25 is taken into account to come to a fair split.

OP posts:
amiold · 25/11/2022 18:01

Twiglett2 · 25/11/2022 18:00

@amiold

For all the reason's I've previously mentioned. He's paid way more into it but that is irrelevant. He is the higher earner because I went part time when we had our first child. Even when I go back full time he will still earn more. I have always done over 80% of the childcare and now have our children all of the time.

50% is the starting point but then Section 25 is taken into account to come to a fair split.

Ah sorry didn't see earlier posts. Must be glitching.

It's your call, I think equal split is fair when splitting but I know lots of people want more.

Twiglett2 · 25/11/2022 18:03

@infohere

Thanks for all the info and links. I'm almost 100% certain there are no pension's or hidden assets, but if he has he's welcome to them. I just want to be able to keep the house. I could buy him out at 50/50 if I have to but obviously would rather agree a split more in my favour given the circumstances.

OP posts:
Twiglett2 · 25/11/2022 18:07

@amiold

Can I ask why you think an equal split would be fair given I've been part time and the lower earner through mutual agreement which has enabled him to increase his earnings?

Also the fact that due to the situation that he has created I've been left doing 100% of the childcare with very little support, I would really struggle to go full time.

OP posts:
amiold · 25/11/2022 18:10

Twiglett2 · 25/11/2022 18:07

@amiold

Can I ask why you think an equal split would be fair given I've been part time and the lower earner through mutual agreement which has enabled him to increase his earnings?

Also the fact that due to the situation that he has created I've been left doing 100% of the childcare with very little support, I would really struggle to go full time.

Because he has earned to enable you to look after the children. You have looked after the children to enable him to earn. Hence a joint effort.

I don't think you should get less but cos you didn't "earn" as you don't your fair share. But I don't think you should get more either.

He will have to pay you maintenance to care for the children and subsidise your earnings. Or he can drop his hours and help you care for the children. If you are a low earner you will be able to claim uc and possibly some childcare (not sure age of your kids)

Why do you think you should get more than him?

amiold · 25/11/2022 18:12

Twiglett2 · 25/11/2022 18:07

@amiold

Can I ask why you think an equal split would be fair given I've been part time and the lower earner through mutual agreement which has enabled him to increase his earnings?

Also the fact that due to the situation that he has created I've been left doing 100% of the childcare with very little support, I would really struggle to go full time.

You mention the situation he created ? I think it's my app not showing me all the messages

DrMarciaFieldstone · 25/11/2022 18:13

In the kindest way, I think you’re in for a shock, @Twiglett2

millymollymoomoo · 25/11/2022 18:16

With children those ages you’d be expected to work full time and it’s your earning potential that’s assessed not just current earnings

agreecwith previous poster upthread who stated that you have house value less mortgage available as asset to split

if you keep the house you need to demonstrate that you can pay the mortgage off and give him his share ( whether that’s 20% or 50% etc)
youd need a mortgage lender to agree to this. They may or may not

how high an earner is he as that might make a difference to the outcome

Twiglett2 · 25/11/2022 18:21

@amiold

I have always worked and paid a proportionate share but he earns over double what I do. Neither of us would be classed as high earners. He is self employed and takes some of his earnings as dividends.

The situation is that neither child will see him at all and that is unlikely to change anytime soon.

OP posts:
amiold · 25/11/2022 18:22

Twiglett2 · 25/11/2022 18:21

@amiold

I have always worked and paid a proportionate share but he earns over double what I do. Neither of us would be classed as high earners. He is self employed and takes some of his earnings as dividends.

The situation is that neither child will see him at all and that is unlikely to change anytime soon.

Take your half and open a child maintenance case.

ArcticSkewer · 25/11/2022 18:24

She won't get much from CMS if he chooses to hide his income, which is really easy to do if self employed.

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