Sleeping arrangements for overnights with their Dad

[NeedSleepNow]

My kids have just recently started having overnights with their Dad at weekends. (we have been separated over a year and only just trying overnights from a few weeks ago).

He only has a 1 bed flat so doesn't have enough room for 3 kids to stay easily. At the moment he is trying with the youngest sharing the double bed with him, then one on the small sofa and one on a blow up bed. None of them are finding it easy, the kids come home exhausted and grumpy and they don't particularly want to go. The eldest is so tired that he then struggles to get his school work done (he's now at secondary and has a lot of work to do). We go back to mediation in a few weeks, should I be voicing that this is not the ideal sleeping arrangements for the kids or just going with it to be seen to be trying to work with him? I find him very hard to talk to as he can be a bully, I feel I have no voice around him. I do not want to encourage further overnight contact as there is history of emotional abuse and the older two in particular often do not want to go at all. I was told at mediation that I basically need to force them to go rather than just make them available as the middle child at 10 is not old enough to know what is best for her (she was often refusing to see him).

We are sorting out finances at the moment so he should be able to rent a bigger place or buy somewhere more suitable soon where he has more space and proper beds for them. I want them to have a good relationship with their Dad so know contact and overnights are needed but I certainly do not want them staying too often given the history of abuse and that he can be a bully.

Sorry I'm not too sure what I'm asking really, I'm just finding this whole process so draining and so are the children.

Pressed post accidentally...

It is still better for the children to avoid high conflict court involvement.

Try to find a mediator or a mediation service who offers either Child Inclusive Mediation or Child Consultation in Mediation. This means that children are met by a specialist mediator separately from their parents and using play techniques are asked about their experiences with contact and separation. This is then fed back to the parents. Usually children from 6 upwards can be included.

If this isn't something that is available or that you want to do then at the very least change mediator. You should not feel pressured to do anything you don't feel is in the best interest of the children.

As mentioned previously, overnights are not necessarily part of what constitutes a great relationship between children and a parent. A good mediator would be exploring what else could strengthen the father/child relationship as well as exploring other options for places that they could stay together.

The fold up beds (eg from Argos) are the solution, we use one for dd2 as we don't have enough bedrooms (she's working but visits)

Don't let the threat of court coerce you into making any contact decisions. A court will not give 50/50 access to someone who has his child sleeping on a couch when they have a comfortable bed elsewhere.

At 13 your DC would be listened to when he said he didn't want 50:50.

Plus your ex would have to be able to house them more appropriately than a one bed flat.

If your eldest doesn't want to stay over offer to pick him up in the evening instead "until the bed issue is resolved".

This is along the lines of what I think would be best, that they go to him for the day and then he drops one or more of them home in the evening or I go and collect. He could then see them again the next day so that he has a weekend with them and then I have the next weekend. My worry is now that overnights have started this way there is no going back or I'll be seen as the difficult ex preventing contact etc... if it ends up going to court.

I then have issues with the youngest being very clingy once home as he had never spent a night away from me before this. It's all such a difficult process for the kids

The whole point of mediation is that you can say the DC aren't happy about the sleeping arrangements could you improve things by doing xyz so that they are happy to come?

He shows what kind of parent he is by not giving the children his bed and slepibng on the pull-out himself!

This is your answer. Works brilliantly for lots of people and the kids stay in their own rooms.

That is absolute nonsense.

Why should he or the kids be deprived of those evenings together chilling and watching stab that the mum in these situations always takes for granted? Or even just having time together where they are limited by an end time and clock watching?

Getting up and having breakfast etc etc are all valuable parts of a parent/child relationship

@Witsendwilly not when there has been abuse.

To be honest op, I understand that you feel he is a bully, and feel like you have no voice, but it sounds like what is best for the children is a bird nesting arrangement, even once a week. The kids can sleep, stay safe and consistent, and be comfortable. You could say he needs to bring the blow up bed and sleep on the floor. You do sound like you're putting a lot of barriers in front of contact and the children will be picking up on it.

Just because you don't WANT him in your space, it might be best!

I am recently separated also; we do 50/50 and make sure we're amicable... we want what's best for our child.

No I don't ever want him in my home again and it is not what is best for the kids either. After years of emotional abuse their home with me needs to be a safe space going forward, not one where their dad is back staying every few nights, shouting at them, calling them names, destroying their confidence, sending them to bed in tears...

I can appreciate it works for some people but can not see how it can work when there has been abuse.

I also want what is best for my child, just like you want what is best for yours, but not all cases are the same and 50/50 doesn't work for everyone. We are amicable and do manage to spend birthdays, Christmas together etc for the sake of the kids but we need our space the rest of the time.

So it's fine to clock watch the following afternoon when they go home but not in the evening after they've watched films and chilled out? Makes tonnes of sense 👍

Quality time is what you make it. Kids not having a good night's sleep isn't okay. And in case you missed it, I said 'until he has suitable accommodation' not 'never again'.

@NeedSleepNow, that's understandable, but his behaviour is his behaviour regardless of where he is, so your children are going to be at risk of his awful behaviour wherever he is with them. If he is genuinely abusive to them, is it in their interests to see him at all? Why aren't you applying for full custody with limited visitation?

As it stands, as you say you want them to have a good relationship with their father and have agreed allowing one overnight stay a week, allowing him into "your" home seems like the best option FOR THEM.

I don’t understand the need for over-nights 🤷🏼‍♀️
I was the child who didnt want to stay at DF’s new house with the SM and her kids, I wanted to go home to my bed.

@11GrumpsaGrumping I would much prefer to have 'sole custody' and him to have limited visitation but I have been advised by my solicitor that that is highly unlikely to happen. It is not physical abuse with police/hospital reports etc it is emotional/financial abuse which is hard to prove and can be seen as a case of he said/she said which courts don't like. And yes he is genuinely abusive as you asked, I haven't just made it up. Have you and your children experienced abuse before? I doubt that many women who have left abusive marriages would want to invite the abuser back into their home.

Yes his behaviour will be the same at his home but I want to be able to provide a safe space and a haven for my children at my house. That is in their interests not just mine.

No I don't want him in my home. Yes he legally owns part of it, but I have been paying for the mortgage and upkeep of the house for over a year now and feel I should be able to have some boundaries. When we sort out finances and sell the house soon it I buy him out hopefully this will help things.

Yes, I have been in an abusive relationship, though thankfully in my situation, there were no children involved. I do have a child with my ex husband, but he isn't abusive so it is and has been amicable.

You said earlier on you wanted them to have a good relationship with their father, which is what I was basing my advice on. You now say you would prefer sole custody, which seems more appropriate giving your updates. I'd then be saying that until he can provide suitable sleeping arrangements for all three children, he can't have them overnight. Then use the time is takes him to sort that out to work with the mediator and courts, with the children's input, towards as close to sole custody as possible?

I understand that it is good for the other parent to get to spend time with them in the evening, dinner time, bath and bedtime routine etc but I feel there is so much emphasis on the need for overnights for the sake of the nrp rather than for the children's benefit.

My ex had been seeing the kids 4 times a week and talking to them on the phone lots so still has contact with them but if it is not practical for them to stay at the moment or if they don't want to it seems silly to force it. I am hoping they all build better relationships with their Dad now that they aren't living with him, I genuinely do. I am certainly not putting lots of barriers up to contact like one of the previous posters said.

We have agreed to try him seeing them one evening midweek to fit in with homework, clubs, his work hours and then trying the overnight at a weekend every other week. He had been seeing them a huge amount but the kids were getting confused, I would receive abusive text messages if I said a certain day wasn't convenient and could he come round the next instead, so at mediation I asked for a schedule for contact.

It is still early days with the routine and I am happy for them to stay at weekends with him as long as it is in their interests rather than his. I just worry that if they all come home tired, angry with their Dad, saying they don't want to go back etc. that things aren't working the way they are and need changing. I hope once the house is sold that he will then get somewhere big enough to have beds for them all. Although he looked at bigger flats/houses to rent which were within budget but he dismissed them all as they were more than 1 mile away from where the kids and I are living at the moment and he lives to tell the children he doesn't have space for them because I take all his money.

Nesting only works if things are amicable. Most breakups are not (especially at first) and I think it's not unreasonable to say no to nesting. I think that it's great that people are amicable enough to do it but if you have an amicable breakup you need to remember that you're not in a usual situation. A combative person can cause a lot of harm by being in their ex's home.

I would personally go to Court so it couldn't be used as a threat against me. Dc1 would get what he wanted as would dc2 in the near future. There is still a chance for dc3 to build a good relationship with his dad. I split with my ex when my kids were 11,9 and 6. 10 years later, the oldest is NC for 5 years, second is LC and third sees dad EOW and a few days during the holidays. DC3 has a good relationship with his dad and looks forward to seeing him.

If he's motivated by money then I would offer the 2 consecutive days of contact but the CM for the night in between being treated as if they slept at his house. I'm guessing that the kids have never complained to him about the sofa or airbed so it might be worth asking him to take the sofa or airbed so one of the other kids gets a decent night's sleep. The youngest might be comfiest on the airbed ?

@NeedSleepNow I looked back at your OP and after all this discussion, I don't think you can interfere in the arrangement just now.

You've said it's temp until your finances are sorted. So this overcrowding will be sorted at some point. It's only 1 night per week. Could you suggest that you or he buys 2 fold up beds from Argos (total 130) to tide them over till he gets a bigger place. That way the two older children get a bed.

You monitor how this goes for a month, and if it's still causing issues then you raise the points at the mediation session?

I completely understand where you are coming from and that remaining as amicable as possible is your goal.

For future arrangements (when he has a large enough place) We tried a 50/50 arrangement for over 2 years and it didn't work out. Our child hated it so it changed this year, but there was a lot of emotional upset to get to this point. I wish I'd changed it rather than let it go on for so long, but I felt that we needed to try things out. It's such a big change for everybody.

It would be good to have those discussions when you have the mediation service so you are clear what the plan is for living arrangements. How long before the finances are sorted out? I wish you well and I hope you get this resolved.

Thank you, it is all so difficult isn't it. Is your child more settled now that you have changed from the 50/50?

My plan was to keep them going for now but if the kids don't find it any easier then raiser it at our next mediation session.

In terms of finances we are currently completing form E and will then try to negotiate the split which I think will be tricky. We have filed for divorce so hopefully we can agree our finances over the next few months and then look at selling the house or me buying him out if that is an option, once the divorce has all gone through.

I will have a look at the argos fold up beds as they sound like they could make it easier for everyone at the moment, thank you.

Yeah don't even try nesting, it's an awful thing to suggest when there's been abuse. My situation sounds similar to yours, or did when we split it's been 4 years now. No way would I have had him back in the house.

Women who have been in abusive relationships should not have to just suck up shit like that just because a grown man can't be bothered to buy more suitable beds/sofa beds for their children to sleep on until finances are sorted

Could he have them every other Friday night instead so they have sat and Sun night back at home and back into better sleeping routine ready for school?

Fridays don't work so will with the kids after school clubs and I think if I suggested Friday nights he would then try for both Friday and Saturday night.

How's your situation now @EveryFlightBeginsWithAFall ?@EveryFlightBeginsWithAFall ? I hope things have improved for you over the last few years.

After 8 months of him living in a caravan on his mums drive 🙄 he decided to move abroad to Dublin.

He now just has them in the longer school holidays but they do have a bedroom and things are much more settled, I think due to his wife's influence, he married 28 months after we split up.

It works out about every 4 months which I've always thought was too long in-between seeing them. The older one complains a lot about going but is OK once he gets there