Police pension / assets split

[beetlehope]

Hi hoping for some less brutal replies this time....
Married in 2012 sep 3 years ago.
Child arrangements done. I have slightly more.
I am desperate to stay in my home but can't afford to give him half equity which could be 120k each.
My pension is small ish and he has police pension which I think is much better.
I dont want his money but I put more into house and yes I know its all in same pot but has anyone leveraged the two things?
Every solicitor gives different advice.
Ive always earned a bit more and he cant afford mortgage alone and he stopped paying anything last month.
He says no solicitor which I get as no one has savings after child stuff but I've been told I need the pension value when I only have the summary.

I'm now paying full mortgage and it's hard and part of me wants it sorted but others think kick it long as house prices will fall.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

Not an expert but from what I know/experienced, your child/ren have the right to have a share of the house value until they are 18. Where is he living? It would be better if he is adequately housed but if he can't afford to buy/rent alone (does he have a new partner?) then that would impact on the share of equity since he would need it to adequately house himself with space for your child/ren. If you don't want spousal support then maybe ask for half his pension and child/support. Yes the pension values is required by the Court.
From what you say even if your pension is small ish but you earn (significantly?) more than him then I don't think it would be seen as fair to also expect to keep the house AND ask for half his pension if you'll be receiving child support as the resident parent.
Personally I would pay for a solicitor once you have all the financial information. He doesn't have to get one, it's his choice. You can both still submit the forms yourselves but it's the legal advice on what you are likely and fairly going to get that is more important to know and be clearer about. The rest is just negotiating and for that I would want to be as informed as possible.

It's free of charge and easy to request your police pension CETV. It takes about 4 weeks though

Thank you
Its his pension so I don't think I can request the cetv ? He won't be keen!
I also read its better to seek a transfer value comparison not a cetv?
I know I won't get the house in its entirety I only want to be able to afford to pay him off by reducing his equity share due to his pension.
I did earn more then I was made redundant and was unemployed for a year. I've been earning about 10k more for last year and could possibly earn more in next role.
I dont want anything bar minimising amount I have to pay as I have no savings due to unemployment and still had to find mortgage during that year.
Trying to have hope x

You were only married for 3 years but is it a long partnership before then?
We made a long long list ....form E? .... of all assets including pension cetv (which you can then pay a pension auditor to look at if it's public sector as it may be worth more than cetv) then split it 50:50. I asked for part of his pension rather than the house.
But you can't expect 50:50 if it's a short relationship.
You can still expect him to get his pension cetv though

oh sorry I mis-read. It's a 10 year marriage but you were married for 7 years, separated for the last 3. Sorry I don't know about medium term marriages after a 3 year separation but I would assume not 50:50. It's all a negotiation and I think once he sees his pension CETV and hears your offer he may be amenable! His pension may be worth a fortune!

I would insist he gets the cetv before you make any agreement at all.

Can you find a Form E template online and fill it in, then insist he fills it in, and then look at what you both feel is a fair split. If you can agree, then great, otherwise it is absolutely worth seeing a solicitor.

The legal system will look to make sure the children are adequately housed, the adults are adequately housed and then split somewhere along 50/50 to 70/30 depending on who has the kids more/career sacrifice (and therefore prospects) etc.

The police pension is part of the pot, just like the house is. If you've been married for a reasonable period of time, then the reciprocal vows of "all that I have I give to you" mean just that ....

The main thing is that the judge who signs off on your consent order feels that the overall split of assets is fair, so negotiating your ex getting less equity but retaining an equivalent value in pension pot is fine (there's some calculation around present versus future value I can't recall).

I'm surprised you haven't got CETVs at this stage, they can take ages to come through and are really important, usually your biggest asset after your house.

It’s common to negotiate trade off between assets which is why it’s important to have valuations

its also important to understand that not all assets are equal - ie a £1 of equity js not equivalent to a £1 of pension due to variability and the fact it’s not a liquid asset available now

and he also needs to house himself adequately

The pension is a marital asset just like the house, I suspect it is worth more than the house. You absolutely need it to be valued properly and it should be offset against the value of the house if you decide not to split it.

However, poverty in old age is a very real thing for divorced women for this exact reason. You would likely be better off selling the house, using your share as a deposit and getting a mortgage, and keeping your share of the pension. Obtaining pensions true value is notoriously difficult and they are usually undervalued.
forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6072211/how-to-get-a-true-value-of-a-police-pension

As I understand it there are 2 aspects – Divorce and Financial Settlement.
To know what a fair split of assets is and to reach a financial settlement divorcing parties need to know what the assets of the marriage are, and what each asset is worth.

Look at a Form E. A long document in which each party sets out their assets, income, and financial needs. You can see in it the assets that are taken into consideration upon divorce and financial settlement, for example property (the former marital home), pensions, stocks and shares etc. It also lists the documents needed that show the value of assets for example CETVs (cash equivalent transfer values of pensions - which can be requested from pension providers).

To find out what some assets are worth an independent expert can be used. Property can be valued by an expert - estate agents, pensions by CETV and / or a pension on divorce expert (PODE) report and so on. It is important to decide what needs a valuation by an independent expert and factor in the costs of these. Pensions can be very valuable – equivalent or more than the value of the former martial home in some cases. Divorcing parties might hold different types of pensions (not like-for-like, so difficult to compare without an expert). Circumstances might be complex for example an age difference or pensions in payment. One party may have stayed at home to look after children.

@AnnaMagnani and @silentpool made some useful comment on this in this thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/divorce_separation/4664756-what-do-i-need-to-do-about-our-pensions?reply=121093079
When splitting the assets of a marriage…
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1973/18/section/25 applies

The income, earning capacity, property, and other financial resource which each of the parties to the marriage has or is likely to have in the foreseeable future. As I understand it, first consideration is given to the welfare (while a minor) of any child of the family who has not yet attained the age of eighteen. The needs of each divorcing party are taken into account and as I understand it 50 / 50 is the starting point – so unequal shares based on circumstances and needs is possible, for example 60 / 40.

These offer a free advice session about pensions on divorce and separation www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/family-and-care/divorce-and-separation/divorce-or-dissolution-how-we-can-help-with-your-pension
Free advice line (busy so keep trying) rightsofwomen.org.uk
Guides on divorce and financial settlement
www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-apply-financial-order-without-help-lawyer
Pensions on divorce
www.sharingpensions.co.uk/penaudit3.htm
www.mediateuk.co.uk/the-ultimate-guide-to-pensions-on-divorce/
www.nuffieldfoundation.org/news/new-good-practice-guide-addresses-shortfall-in-understanding-of-how-to-treat-pensions-on-divorce
Valuation of pensions – pensions on divorce expert report
www.collinspensionactuaries.co.uk no relation – useful website
www.collinspensionactuaries.co.uk/pension-data-collection/ templates for information required
Hope this is helpful. Caveat – this is not my profession.
Legal advice should be sought.
This link gives you an indication of hourly rate for solicitors
www.gov.uk/guidance/solicitors-guideline-hourly-rates
Some organisations offer free advice from solicitors and barristers rightsofwomen.org.uk/get-advice/ On their FAQs page…”Our Legal Officers and Volunteer legal advisors are all solicitors and barristers”.
Some family solicitors offer an in initial free consultation and some a fixed fee rather than hourly.
Some barristers can be directly instructed e.g., via Clerksroom Direct

Thank you all
He won't move forward again... I have asked for next steps and him to provide pension cetv and I will do same but no reply.
This always happens he won't want the stress but liked to make me stressed by stopping contributing to mortgage
House valued at 550 ish with 270 mortgage.
He lives with family.
He cant afford mortgage alone.
I just need to whittle down the money sp I cam pay him off.
I dont want ties to his pension I want a clean break. I would If rich give him half just to lose the stress I just don't have cash and can't add to mortgage.
He just thinks he can have half house equity and walk away!

My worry is I'm now paying full mortgage and stretched so can't afford large solicitors bills- child cost 13k for him to get the same as I gave!
It hurts he gets half when I'm having to pay for what he left me with - an unfinished house qnd lots of bills.

Honestly someone should insist women get marriage advice I was too nice.
I should have protected myself and my child's future

Don't be hard on yourself, I'm not sure how you think you could have protected anything? You're trying to sort things out amicably which is protecting them as much as you can. Time to book into mediation.

Sorry I don't know how to @ someone to reply.
I wish I'd been Tennant in common or kind - the one I protect what I put in which was a lot and he put in nothing. I also paid so much more each month ans I'd have savings now If I didn't. I feel guilty I went back to work so soon to protect my income because he wasn't always in full pay. I feel like I made bad decisions. If I hadn't had a child I would be better paid now and yet none of this will matter or the time I was unemployed and was married but separated. I dont want to screw him over but just like the child proceedings I think will be again

I think that only applies to unmarried couples who buy property though, once married it becomes a joint asset anyway as it's the matrimonial home.
If the children are to remain with you then this could tip in your favour equity wise have a look at section 25 of the matrimonial clauses act.
I'm sorry you are going through this, it's horrible and stressful.

You wouldn't have ties to his pension, you would have a separate pension where they take part of his and put it in a separate pension for you. Just worth knowing as a negotiating tactic that if he wants 50% house then that's fine, you want 50% his pension. May focus him!

I'm sorry he isn't being reasonable. I don't see what choice you have other than to push forward with the divorce, first stage mediation, ending up in court where he can explain why he hasn't valued his pension yet.

As you say, the house will fall in value. His pension will rise in value. Long term this may benefit you more than him

I agree please don't be so hard on yourself. I can't emphasise how important it is to get proper legal advice, especially since your ex is happy to let things drag on, and do all you can on your side to progress not just to finalise things but to protect you and your children's futures. Clean break doesn't mean you settle for less. It looks like there needs to be a lot coaxing and negotiating. But if you don't don't what there is to negotiate for or what you are legally entitled to then you could be already losing out. I'm afraid getting pension values is a mandatory requirement by the Court so the Judge can review ALL your finances because they must be fair to everyone in the order of any kids being adequately provided for and then the same for the adults.

Sorry that should say if you don't know. The 50/50 is just a starting point and depends on the circumstances of each case.

Most police officers have access to legal advice through their federations. Who invest a lot in the protection and welfare of their members. They will give him really good advice on how he should negotiate and whether he should offset equity against pension. It’s probably not in his interest to give away part of his pension.

Don’t assume he is burying his head in the sand by refusing to negotiate with you. He has no need to disclose until he has to and he has no need to respond to your offers. Without disclosure you don’t know what a reasonable offer looks like or what is possible.

If you want things to progress, begin the process. Start mediation, if that doesn’t resolve things then move onto court action. He will be compelled to disclose at some stage. Only then should you start negotiating.

Btw, there is no 50:50 starting point in divorce. It’s a possible end point, but you have no automatic entitlement to 50%, nor does he. Assets will be split according to needs. There is little evidence in the thread to support mesher order unless he agrees to it as there is a lot of equity and you both have incomes.

Please get a solicitor asap. That was my big mistake. I also wish I'd known about mumsnet. My advice - take and follow the solicitor's advice. The nice lady at my building society shared her story with me! I contacted the same solicitor as her husband used. I had already agreed to things with my ex which left me very disadvantaged. I just wanted a line drawn under everything but did want to keep the family home.

It used to be the case the police CETVs were calculated strangely. This can massively undervalue the pension.

if you’re looking to offset your interest in his pension against equity to pay him less, you’ll need an actuary’s report.

actuariesforlawyers.com/uniformed-public-sector-pensions-and-pension-sharing-what-should-you-look-out-for/

Thank you audioslaw it's been a dreadful 3 years tbh and the legal system is expensive and slow

I'm working out who to use . Its so hard to pick one. 😪

I think that an actuary report is expensive?
I guess it's all a calculation - report costs vs money saved etc etc

If you know basic details you can calculate yourself how much it is worth
www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-pensions-calculator

I would put money that its worth much more than the house.

Thank you so much- the house is about 550 / 600. He's not got loads of service and is over 40 but qny little helps.