Under what circumstances might you get spousal support?

[cleocleo24]

Hi

I am asking for a friend who's not on here.

Here DH has moved out and they are separated. For now he has rented a flat and they have agreed on child access. He has said he will pay £350 child maintenance a month. My friend is moaning this is too low, he does earn around £80k I would say but his job is in jeopardy I think. She's not happy with this but doesn't seem to want to make any effort to find out what he should be paying her- 1dc.

She has been told she can get £500 tax credits a month. Not sure of her earnings but probably around £600 a month.

Anyway- she wants her dh to pay the whole mortgage as she says she can't afford it. It's only a small mortgage £40000 but payments are £400 a month. He's told her to extend it to reduce payments but she hasn't/won't.

She also thinks he should continue to pay half her bills. I have tried to gentle say this never happens in most circumstances- is this right? She's being very abusive and angry with him and can't seem to see any other perspective but her own. She seems utterly convinced he should pay.

How long have they been married and what is their situation in terms of education level/earning potential and current jobs? Pension provision?

She won't get tax credits these are no longer available.

It would be an application for universal credit. If she has savings over 6k she likely won't get these. Also if she was awarded spousal maintenance, which is rare, this may reduce those benefits too.

Is she working?

Spousal maintenance is not commonly awarded. Of course she needs to check with her own solicitor about her exact circumstances, but it doesn't sound v likely to me.

The sorts of circumstances when it might be ordered:
a) for a short period to allow for someone who has been out of the workforce to retrain (if necessary) and job hunt
b) if the marriage was of long duration, and it is for a shortish period before pension sharing kicks in
c) if additional needs of DC if the marriage mean that one person is likely to be career for life without reasonable prospects of employment
d) if the former spouse has any other reason why they will not able to support themselves (maybe)

I can't add much to the conversation other than to say when I was getting divorced it came up and my solicitor said it was rare for it to be awarded in England and Wales. Other than that I don't know.

@Noclosure

How long have they been married and what is their situation in terms of education level/earning potential and current jobs? Pension provision?

She won't get tax credits these are no longer available.

It would be an application for universal credit. If she has savings over 6k she likely won't get these. Also if she was awarded spousal maintenance, which is rare, this may reduce those benefits too.

Is she working?

Married 15 years. I expect she earns minimum wage in a holistic type job. Only works 15 hours a week but could definitely up her hours. She does other work related cash in hand.

He's self employed.

They are both pretty irresponsible with money. I don't think either of them have pensions- maybe her with work but she's not worked there long. Neither of them have savings. Both in debt. I get the impression he's in a lot of debt but don't know how much.

Spousal maintenance would reduce her benefits. Unless she was able to be awarded more than her benefits it’s not worth it to her. Child support doesn’t impact on benefits.

Can she improve her income? And has she calculated the actual child support amount?

Anger and aggression won’t achieve anything but resistance and retaliation from her ex. It won’t change the law or how it is applied. It will just make her ill and unhappy.

Ok thanks. I will pass it on to her but I doubt she will listen. She seems absolutely determined that he owes her, that he should pay because he said he wanted her to stay in the house but she can't afford it. Her tactic seems to force him to by being nasty and wearing him down.

£400 is a very low mortgage.

Her best bet is to use the CMS calculator to find out how much he should be paying. Ask him for that much and if he refuses then use the CMS service to get him to pay.

Then she needs to up her hours at work or get a better paid job.

I'd advise against the cash in hand stuff as she'll be in a world of pain if gets done for benefit fraud/tax evasion

Yep. She seems completely oblivious to how the law works and determined that she is right not matter what. Bringing up past things about the relationship as her justification which have no bearing on finances now.

That he has no share of the house because it was gifted to her etc. She hasn't bothered to look up any legal things. I have tried to gently tell her but she's very much in women scorned, angry, revengeful stage now.

Unfortunately her DH finds it hard to say no and I think her tactic will work. I expect he will give in and give her what she wants for a quiet life. He said he's worried she would stop access to their dd if he did. Both seem to want to reach an agreement without any legal advice which is baffling. I have advised her to get legal advice but she seems to be very tunnel vision.

It sounds like her mindset is heading towards disappointment. I've got nothing else to add other than the points others have raised.

The reality is the context in which a house was purchased no longer exists. If she can't afford to run it by herself - the CMS sounds low unless there's significant overnights, or he's gaming the books being self employed, is that she'll have to sell the house and change somewhere else. A house for 3 is u likely to be seen as a need for two.

Sounds like he may not have the money to give her if there are debts. Dangerous game to play guilting him into it. If he goes bankrupt she's totally screwed.

@Flerp

It sounds like her mindset is heading towards disappointment. I've got nothing else to add other than the points others have raised.

The reality is the context in which a house was purchased no longer exists. If she can't afford to run it by herself - the CMS sounds low unless there's significant overnights, or he's gaming the books being self employed, is that she'll have to sell the house and change somewhere else. A house for 3 is u likely to be seen as a need for two.

Yes, thanks. I also said perhaps she should downsize, she doesn't want to. Her parents have offered to pay the mortgage, she doesn't want t then to. She said she could only just manage by upping her work to four days but hasn't seemed to do anything about it. She seems to totally be relying on her dh paying. He's agreed £5k to her, I don't know why.

Yes £350 sounds low. She doesn't seem to want to calculate how much she should be getting. Both seem determined to stick to what they see as 'fair' without any actual evidence behind it. He seems to have dictated what he will pay her rather than either investigating what he should. She's decided he should pay the whole mortgage and I don't know what else.

She puts out big declarations like I am going to divorce him but doesn't seem to understand that she's likely to be worse off if she did. He's allowed her to stay in the house right now and not taken any share.

@RandomMess

Sounds like he may not have the money to give her if there are debts. Dangerous game to play guilting him into it. If he goes bankrupt she's totally screwed.

Yep. I worry she will drive him into taking his share of the house he's entitled too. She can't seem to see the bigger picture. From my understanding she's asking for spousal maintenance but through an agreement amongst themselves rather than with a legal agreement. That's why I was asking if this ever happens. I feel like she won't take no it never does as an answer though.

As a point of comparison, my exH earns around £110k per annum.

We were married for 12 years

Dc were 5, 3 and 3 when we divorced. I hadn’t worked since DC1 was born as they have SEN. I am their registered carer.

I was advised it wasn’t worth pursuing spousal maintenance.

Spousal maintenance is ordered where the Court is satisfied that

A one party needs it, and
B the other can afford it.

Someone on £80K is easily in the frame for spousal maintenance, so it's very much a live issue, however, on UC, the spousal maintenance (as opposed to child maintenance) will be considered as W's income, so your friend may be on a hiding to nothing there.

Why not sell the house and buy somewhere outright? That should make life easier.

@DaffodilDandilion

As a point of comparison, my exH earns around £110k per annum.

We were married for 12 years

Dc were 5, 3 and 3 when we divorced. I hadn’t worked since DC1 was born as they have SEN. I am their registered carer.

I was advised it wasn’t worth pursuing spousal maintenance.

Goodness, that seems harsh in your situation. thanks very much for the info though.

As I said I think she's just trying to pressure him into it without a legal contract.

I have told her to do this as then she will be able to keep the lifestyle she's used to but she doesn't want to downsize. I think she doesn't want to cause more change for her dd. But wants her ex to find the lifestyle she's used to.

From what you say, she sounds pretty unreasonable. However you also don't sound like much of a friend - do you even like her? Regardless of whether she's being sensible about financials, it sounds like she's been dumped by her husband and presumably had her entire life and expectations turned around. If you're truly her friend then you need to find some empathy and kindness. Divorce is a huge trauma, no matter how expected or even deserved.

If you're not truly her friend, then one or both of you are going to be a lot better off if you stay out of the details and mess of her divorce.

@OverTheRubicon

From what you say, she sounds pretty unreasonable. However you also don't sound like much of a friend - do you even like her? Regardless of whether she's being sensible about financials, it sounds like she's been dumped by her husband and presumably had her entire life and expectations turned around. If you're truly her friend then you need to find some empathy and kindness. Divorce is a huge trauma, no matter how expected or even deserved.

If you're not truly her friend, then one or both of you are going to be a lot better off if you stay out of the details and mess of her divorce.

Thanks for your post. Food for thought and you are right. I am trying to be emphatic and supportive. I am trying to offer her sensible advice and have done some reading for her as she's not finding out any of the legal stuff herself.

Yes- unfortunately I think she's on the road to self destruction. She's in the angry stage. They were separated but living together for the last 18 months. Everyone else else saw this coming but she didn't seem too. Or was in denial thinking they could carry on living together, splitting the finances and childcare.

Unfortunately she didn't spend those 18 months getting her ducks in a row so is now stressing. Yes- I think she's going through a very traumatic part of her life. I am trying to be a good friend but it's very hard at the moment as she's not behaving like the friend I know and love. It's hard when her actions and words you disagree with so much. I know a lot about it as she is very open and it's all she talks about. I have been there for her the last 18 months but have realised she doesn't want advice, she will do what she wants.

Every meet up is about the new man and her ex. I really am trying to be supportive but the friendship is very one sided right now. I have my own stuff going on too. It's hard to be friends with her right now as she's not treating those around her very well.

he does earn around £80k

If so, then currently Child Benefit would be, effectively zero. i.e. if received he pays it back in tax.

So, proceed to claim Child Benefit if not already received. And 25% council tax reduction for a single person, since he has moved out.

It also depends on her age and employment opportunities - I.e. if she's 62 has never worked and left school with no qualifications she'd likely have a stronger case than if she's 40, currently works and there's no reason why she can't work full time.

@episcomama

It also depends on her age and employment opportunities - I.e. if she's 62 has never worked and left school with no qualifications she'd likely have a stronger case than if she's 40, currently works and there's no reason why she can't work full time.

Thanks. The latter is the case. I will let her know this. As I said I think she's trying to get this without the legal route.

If there is debt, then sooner or later, he won’t be able to show her largesse and everything will revert to basic CMS and a clean break. The CMS won’t be great if he is self employed. Or, he could meet someone who isn’t understanding about him supporting his ex wife.

She needs to get her act together and become as independent as she can be. The longer she lets things muddle along the worse they will get. Debt will grow and she is eroding her opportunities to get back into better paid work and to get a decent mortgage deal.

Been thinking about your friends situation overnight.

Whilst I have sympathy for her losing her lifestyle, she needs to get a hold of her situation and take responsibility for her income now. She's being really unrealistic about what money she will get and as soon as she realises that the better.

She's in a very advantaged position really with such a small mortgage to pay, this will be managable with her working more hours and a top up from Universal Credit for the children (they won't pay towards a mortgage only rent).

The sooner she moves on from him the sooner Shae can have a better life.

Thanks. Yes- we have told her this. She's never been independent, always been lucky enough to have parents/friends helping her out or DH paying for things so I think it's a huge change for her. She says she's going to up her hours but whether she actually does is anyone's guess. I think she wants to put pressure on the ex rather than cut her cloth to her lifestyle. Her priorities are rather muddled right now. Eg spending money on Botox etc and then having to ask ex for money as she's ran out. I hope she's able to become more independent.