How do I manage christmas with alcoholic, narcissistic ex and his new GF?

[siucra]

I have been separated for four years now, and live with just my DD (13). It had taken time and energy to manage my ex-DH. He is what I now know to be a narcissist. When I was married to him, I couldn't understand what was wrong with him, but now I know and everything has fallen into place. Since me, he has had a three year relationship which ended last February when his drinking (a bottle of vodka on a Saturday afternoon) ended it. My DD has not stayed over night with him since then. And he has been around very little, often not contacting her for days and days, and not spending any quality time with her.
His drinking was beyond awful, when I lived with him. But I always found his pent-up rage and verbal abuse to be worse. However, he is since in another relationship with a woman who is recently widowed. He is very 'charming' and this woman is obviously very taken with him. My DD has met her twice. They now have decided that my DD should spend from Christmas Eve to January the 2nd. He first texted me about it, and as it was such a ridiculous request I ignored it (trying to manage a narcissist is very, very difficult and am trying to reduce drama). Then, I received a text from his new GF (have never met her) saying the same. I responded saying i would ask my DD, and then got back to ex saying that DD would go for dinners any time over christmas but not stay over night. This hasn't gone down well, and he has accused me of 'taking his daughter from him' and now my DD has received a text from new GF saying how much she is looking forward to spending Christmas with her.
I am at a loss. He is unmanageable, and unreasonable. Nothing works. There is no way I can just say that it unworkable. I also can't tell new GF was a truly terrible father he is. My DD is torn - she loves him, and remembers what he is like when he is nice. She doesn't want to hurt him. Do I just let her go? Any advice to manage the unmanageable? Thank you.

Oh I sympathise as my ex sounds similar in some ways and his girlfriend is the same in the sense of crossing boundaries she shouldn’t!

What does your daughter want to do? The request seems a bit excessive especially as she hasnt been spending overnights with him? My son is nearly 11 and he has started to voice what he wants now so it makes it easier in some ways.

Sorry, he's suggesting that after no overnights since February he wants 7 in a row and you miss both Christmas and new year with your daughter? I'd say that seems incredibly unreasonable.
You'd need to check with someone with legal experience but I think at 13 the Childs view is usually taken into account in these sorts of things?
Maybe you can work with your daughter to help her manage what she wants to say. She's unfortunately going to have to learn how to manage him as well as she gets older.

Yes - at 13 your daughter’s views would very much be considered by any UK court.

The length of stay suggested is completely unreasonable, in any case.

And it’s utterly ridiculous for the new girlfriend to be pressurising her.

Encourage your daughter to do what would make her happiest.

Her father can go to court if he objects.

I would block the new g/f from contacting your DD direct. It will add emotional pressure and it is completely unnecessary for them to have direct contact at this stage.
If your ex is still drinking, DD should not even be given the option of staying overnight.
Ask her which days she would like to spend with them and communicate this to your ex.
No further discussion or negotiation- just a yes or no from him.

Also, his attempt at performance parenting to impress a new woman is pretty horrible …

www.al-anonuk.org.uk/alateen/

How aware of his alcoholism is your DD?

She needs support to cope with this long term - but not to be driven by FOG (fear obligation or guilt) - she needs to develop very strong boundaries and a secure sense of her own self in this very difficult relationship over the long term.

He has stated what he wants as has his GF.

You DD has said what she wants - but where are YOUR needs and wants. They are just as valid as his. Don’t let him guilt trip you.

In this incident I would explore with your DD about what she really wants (be clear it’s not feeling pressure to meet his needs as he has never and will never meet any of hers). Then I would support HER in communicating these.

I would also look at safeguarding and would give her opportunities to come home - or only go for lunches if his drinking is worse later in the day. I would be honest in communicating that to his GF.

The whole idea is a recipe for disaster - alcohol, Christmas and trying to impress the new gf. Your daughter is not a plot device in his new life.

I would recommend blocking both of them to stop the emotional manipulation for now. Talk to your DD and if she wants to see him then that is her choice.

What does your dd want?

First of all.. the girlfriend should not be texting you or the daughter. She is massively overstepping boundaries. This woman is no one to your daughter so her even having her phone number is ridiculous.

Your ex is trying to play Disney dad so he can impress this woman.

Continue on with your plans for your daughter to have dinners and no overnights. Then gray rock him and the GF.

Your daughter is allowed to have boundaries and if she does not want any tk stay then she does not have to.

And his true colors will show with the new GF. Narcissists are always charming in the beginning but they can’t last that long until they show their true self.

How easy - or not - would it be for your daughter to leave, if she went for a meal and they tried to make her stay longer?

That would be my concern.

I think it's your DD's choice to a point, dinner either Christmas Day or Boxing Day is definitely fair enough, encourage her to choose one of them but you pick her up at an agreed time. If she feels comfortable staying overnight (obviously she needs to have a phone so she can call you if things aren't working) then one night initially then work up to a proper schedule

“I am at a loss. He is unmanageable, and unreasonable. Nothing works. There is no way I can just say that it unworkable.”

I am so sorry that you feel this way - however there are strategies to manage these very difficult people. You will never fix them, it will never be easy - but it will be predictable and there are ways to minimise the emotional damage and move out of the feelings of powerlessness, helplessness and hopelessness. Both you and your DD will need continued support and guidance to hold your boundaries so that your lives are not derailed and subjugated constantly.

This website is very very helpful - your DD needs to know the lay of the land with regards his alcoholism and abusive / narcissistic behaviours - otherwise she will internalise the stress and confusion, blame herself, subject herself to abuse and adapt her own behaviours and boundaries to in a futile attempt accommodate / ameliorate his dysfunction. She needs to know he is toxic. She can still love him - but needs to separate herself out emotionally by “detaching with love” otherwise her own emotional well-being will deteriorate and she could well end up with chronic MH issues. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

outofthefog.website/

nacoa.org.uk/ - this is very helpful also

Thank you very much for all the words of wisdom and support. I think I will stand firm, press ahead with our plans and stay calm. My DD is very aware of his drinking, but not aware of how manipulative he is. It’s very hard to teach her about narcissism when she’s only 13. But I do believe very strongly that I want her to know how to deal with him.
And I will talk to her about blocking the GF. Amazed how pushy she is actually.

And she won’t be staying overnight. The GF obviously just thinks he is a charming and fun social drinker. She’ll find out soon enough.

I'm glad you are going to stand firm and block the GF she will have been fed a pack of lies and he is in live bombing charming mode.

Best of all would be if they went out for dinner somewhere. Perhaps you can think of a restaurant she and your Ex would love to go to and suggest they do that as it "would make her Christmas"?

I dont think you should have told them you would ask your daughter. I think you should say that YOU do not agree to her staying over night due to his drinking. Its better that they blame you rather than them trying to pressure your daughter into coming. You have to take the heat for her.

I’d disagree, femfemlicious. A court would ask the daughter what she wants, and consider what is in her best interests. The OP and her ex’s competing wishes are far less persuasive here.

So it’s best that the OP lets the ex know that any response is coming from the child. Because that’s what his solicitor will be up against if he takes the matter to court.

Good for you @siucra - standing firm is exactly everything we need to be able to do in life. It’s OK to be blind sided by high conflict personalities - but once you stop reverberating (give yourself lots is TIME to settle) you can then think straight when calm and choose how / what / when to respond rather than react. You are away now - he doesn’t get to yank your chain.

Your DD just needs to know that she is dealing with a tricky character - she needs to know to pay attention to her own feelings and the second she feels confused / compromised - she knows that something is “off” - her boundaries are being violated or challenged and she can then stop, pause, withdraw to think things through and what she wants to do.

She has no obligation to dance to Disney dads tune. She should know her self worth and that she can remove herself and detach herself from any situation or relationship at any point.

You don’t have to do down the full narc language onslaught - but she should be counselled to consider individual healthy behaviours and unhealthy ones - acceptable and not acceptable. Ask her frequently how she feels about things he does - don’t judge it yourself but let her speak and find her own vocabulary.

Thank you all so much. i am going to take notes of everything all of you have said, and then really focus on getting this right. I think focusing on DD's needs helping her handle this exceptionally tricky character is paramount. Maybe I can see Christmas as a test and that instead of being upset, handle it really well. He is galvanised by GF obviously, and she by him.
Throughout our relationship, he would utterly blindside me with the verbal abuse and irrational thoughts. I used to feel utterly destroyed after an encounter. I am only now learning how to keep calm under such an onslaught. Four years out and a lovely quiet house (me, DD and two dogs) helps. I also grew up with narcissistic mother, and also sister. It's all falling into place.

www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/

This might help. Honestly once you have the measure of them you can see it and predict what will happen. Once you have the roadmap you will know where you are and where you are going. Have a read up on complex PTSD because that is the physiological state that we get thrown into when the rage / manipulative / control kicks off - but we can learn to recognize when we are emotionally triggered by our physical symptoms and then learn to intercept to bring out emotions back down or up into healthy functioning place with grounding techniques etc.

You have given your DD a tremendous lifelong gift by getting her out and providing an emotionally nourishing calm and peaceful home. She will now have a contrast and will know what’s stable and unstable, especially if you are able to role model how to emotionally protect yourself from these types.

Have you had any therapy to support you?

Thank you @ESGdance. I will look at that website now. I have just read a book called Daughter Detox which is helpful, and everything can be transposed. The worst (best?) has been discovering about my sister. I couldn't understand why she acted like she hated me, yet wanted me around. She was devoid of warmth and empathy. I couldn't understand why she did such mean and dismissive things to me and yet I revered her and have spent all my life desperately trying to make her like me. Reading about narcissists you realise that they don't like you - and that's okay. I don't really like her very much and I have now let her go. No one in my family ever supported me, as she was such a powerful figure. But that's waning now. I have support of a younger half-sister which has been great! It's nice to be believed but for most of my life, I felt so alone because she was so adored. But my younger half-siblings are grown up now and are starting to see her for what she is! Sorry, have derailed my own thread. Thank you to everyone for taking the time to support me. xxx

@ESGdance

nacoa.org.uk/ - this is very helpful also

Thank you. I think I will watch some of the videos with my DD. I have been looking for peer support for her but Al Anon meetings (on line and in person) are yet to start up again here (we are in Ireland). She seems so grown up in so many ways but today I was watching her play basketball with the school and she looked so young and sweet that it broke my heart! She's a gorgeous girl and I am determined that she will survive this!

@femfemlicious

I dont think you should have told them you would ask your daughter. I think you should say that YOU do not agree to her staying over night due to his drinking. Its better that they blame you rather than them trying to pressure your daughter into coming. You have to take the heat for her.

I know what you are saying about taking the heat for her. And I am. The most important thing is that I don't pressure her but support her in what she wants. You have to keep questioning yourself that your motives are right and you are doing it for her, not because I don't like him. And I am happy to take all the blame from them. xx

@LiterallyKnowsBest

I’d disagree, femfemlicious. A court would ask the daughter what she wants, and consider what is in her best interests. The OP and her ex’s competing wishes are far less persuasive here.

So it’s best that the OP lets the ex know that any response is coming from the child. Because that’s what his solicitor will be up against if he takes the matter to court.

Yes, I agree @LiterallyKnowsBest. She is 13 and it's crucial that I am her voice in this. I hope he does take me to court (not really) but I might get a better deal. I was so desperate to get divorced and he prevaricated and was so impossible in the process that I and my solicitor (and his too) were just glad to get to the end.