Considering continuing without lawyer

[MacadamiaMarge]

I’m currently divorcing my husband and we’ve recently had the FDA.

Up to this point (including filing, applying for the nisi, completing voluntary Forms E, having the FDA and engaging a pensions expert), I have spent around £30,000 on legal fees.

He has been very difficult and untruthful about a lot of things so there has been a lot of back and forth which I am obviously paying for every time.

He is barely seeing our children and refused to pay maintenance until the FDA (nearly a year post-separation/filing). He said this was because he was still paying the mortgage on the family home despite having moved out, but he had applied for a mortgage holiday so wasn’t actually paying it. He is a high-earner (salary c£150,000).

I anticipate that negotiations will not go well and we will end up back in court. He has moved in with a woman who is much younger than him and I think he is keen to have a clean financial break and get as much money as he can from the divorce to buy a house with her (to keep her).

Having said that, there is not a huge amount to split, in terms of assets (£300,000 equity and his pension), so it’s really going to be a matter of how the children will be housed (live in London, large mortgage, I’m not a high earner). He has lost large amounts of money since the split.

Would I be crazy to let my legal team go and represent myself from here on in? I don’t want to be taking loans out to pay lawyers fees, when there is so little to go round as it is. I have now used the last of my savings.

Has anyone done it themselves and found it to be ok?

My first experience of court was not good. In the FDA the judge was awful and sided with him when I felt it was wrong (eg said he didn’t have to disclose where money went, didn’t have to explain bank accounts that we had no disclosure for, said he didn’t have to say whether he was cohabiting, etc).

I just can’t bear to receive another bill for £1000’s and see my childrens’ future opportunities and experiences disappear.

I would be really grateful for anyone’s opinions on this.

Honestly I wouldn't, you're playing right into his hands if you do.

Thank you for replying. Would there not be some allowance made for someone who was put in a difficult financial position and so had to represent themselves?

I probably wouldn’t come out better without a lawyer, but would I definitely come out worse? Once the legal fees were added into the pot?

I think you need at least to find another solicitor, £30,000 spent on the basics before you start the proper fight is far too much, especially considering how small is the family pot you are dividing.

These are the things I would have wanted to know that would have helped me to save a lot of money, and some that I was grateful were pointed to me by someone who, unlike my solicitor, wasn’t full of tact so put in in black and white help me to see the things as they were rather than as I or my friends thought they were fair to be:

1. The courts are not going to make him pay more than he can afford.

2. You can earn the right to keep the house… but that doesn’t mean he needs to continue paying the mortgage, you need to be prepared to take the mortgage onwards on your own.

3. There is no point in fighting child maintenance levels at court. You can get a higher level of maintenance at a high legal cost BUT, after a year, he can go to the CMS and ask for it to be reviewed according to his income so…the maximum you would get is 20% of his net income provided you have more than one kid and they do not spend nights at their dad’s otherwise the maintenance is reduced proportionally.

4. DO NOT USE YOUR SOLICITOR AS A FRIEND OR COUNSELOUR,

Christ!

Very (very very very) messy divorce in my immediate family and the final bill didn't even touch 30k.

Think you need to find a different solicitor

@MacadamiaMarge

Thank you for replying. Would there not be some allowance made for someone who was put in a difficult financial position and so had to represent themselves?

I probably wouldn’t come out better without a lawyer, but would I definitely come out worse? Once the legal fees were added into the pot?

I’m sorry to say that there is no guarantee the legal fees would be “added” to the pot, you need to asume the legal fees are yours to pay from what you get out of the pot unless the court decides otherwise.

I am not sure what is the situation with Legal Aid these days but at the time I went though this, it was based on your income, but the threshold was very low and you didn’t get as many hours from the solicitor as when you are paying yourself. I’ll try to find it for you…

Would there not be some allowance made for someone who was put in a difficult financial position and so had to represent themselves?

In my experience, no.

Other than politely stopping you each time you try to ask / say / do something during a court hearing that you aren't allowed to do. But they can't tell you what you should do to get a better outcome because that would be advising you - you'll just get told to stop the things you mustn't do. And they can't give more weight to your side to account for you being unrepresented.

Echoing a pp a bit, one of the most useful and important things for you to do here is to disabuse yourself of the notion that any of this is about truth or fairness. It is about applying the law as it stands, and that won't necessarily be about fairness or truth.

Don't get drawn into trying to prove/debate the truth or right and wrong or wanting to feel a sense of justice / accountability from proceedings. No matter how frustrated you feel that the truth/fairness is being treated as an irrelevance. It's a waste of time, energy and money because those are not achievable goals in this legal process.

Legal Aid eligibility www.gov.uk/check-legal-aid

I would also reflect on what that £30k has gone on. Presumably they've provided their time recordings with each bill. Is it because you've instructed a solicitor with a higher hourly rate than makes sense for your financial position?

Or is it because lots of time has been spent on getting into arguments trying to prove the truth / vindicate your position? (You mentioned "back and forth" she to him being "untruthful"). Lots of time of you venting to the solicitor? Time spent on trivialities that aren't cost effective?

Or a combination?

Do the narratives on the bills make sense? Is the time they are recording justified?

Once you establish that you can decide whether you need to instruct a different solicitor, modify your behaviour / how you use them, or both.

I am just at the end of this, my bill is
£8.5k and there was a lot of back and forth for getting what I’m legally entitled too, 50%! My biggest regret as previous said they are not their to counsel you. My ex changed to representing himself, he wrote some hilarious emails but my one still thinks his bill will be about same as mine. Luckily we had no mortgage and house has now sold so my fees are just coming off before it hits my bank to go straight back out with a small mortgage whilst he rides off with his cash and no kids to house, whilst I do on a low wage whilst he earns 70k plus. I’m in Scotland so might be different

Thank you for these replies, I’m really grateful. There is a lot of useful information here.

Most of the legal fees so far were for

1. chasing interim maintenance. He said he would pay certain things then started cancelling bit by bit. So each time there was a solicitor’s letter and an exchange, etc. In hindsight if I knew how little he would end up paying, and that there was nothing I could do about it, I wouldn’t have bothered at all.

2. my solicitor going through his form E. It was incomplete, contradicted things he’d previously told us and many documents were missing. My solicitor spent hours on it and I only found out how long once I was billed for this. My fault for not checking but I had no idea it would take so long.

3. chasing up his barrister following the FDA. They would not agree to changes and it went back and forth for over a week after the hearing

So generally unavoidable things and I try to limit calls and emails as much as possible.

Although I guess there might be cheaper solicitors out there.

I’m definitely starting to realise about there being no truth or justice in all of this. I did actually think that his behaviour had been so awful that ‘right’ was on my side, but it doesn’t seem to matter at all. I also thought the children’s welfare would come first, but apparently not.

Very interesting point about the Mesher order, thank you, that’s something to think about.

@millymoo1202 yes this is what gets me. I have to support myself and two children and he swans off with a large chunk of the assets and the majority of his (large) salary. For just himself!

Don't assume his pension isn't worth much- that might be a very significant element of the settlement.

I see you engaged a pensions expert (actuary?) though so hopefully that side of things is taken care of already within the £30k fees.

Yes, the pension valuation is included in the £30k. It cost £1200.

From what my solicitor said, his pension will be the largest asset. More than the house.

I’m definitely starting to realise about there being no truth or justice in all of this. I did actually think that his behaviour had been so awful that ‘right’ was on my side, but it doesn’t seem to matter at all. I also thought the children’s welfare would come first, but apparently not.

That is a tough realisation and it's also a hard way to learn that the cultural myths about our courts and legal system (in terms of truth, fairness, right and wrong) are myths not facts. I do feel for you.

You cannot go back to change the past and you're right that some of it was probably unavoidable, but there are a couple of points you could learn from moving forward in how you work with your solicitor.

So firstly, it sounds like you may have a bit of a better sense now on when to call time and which battles are cost effective to fight so to speak. And you're armed with more information, understanding and experience. (Also, have you ever had that conversation with them? "In your experience would it be cost effective to continue to pursue xyz?" Or "what might the best outcome and worst outcomes be if I pursue xyz, and what is the likelihood of each?" )

A good solicitor shouldn't be encouraging you to spend time/money pursuing futile paths - if they advise you that you're unlikely to succeed with xyz but you insist you want to pay to pursue it anyway that's very different from them neglecting to tell you that what you want to pursue is unwise.

And secondly, don't be afraid to ask for at least a time quote for each discrete piece of work or to have discussions afterwards if time spent seems unjustifiable. Then where time costs appear excessive or go beyond what you were advised without them having updated you to say "this is taking longer than I expected because xyz, are you happy for me to continue?" it is completely ok to politely challenge them and have the conversation about how they are justifying this bill.

A good solicitor will be conscious of when time costs are mounting in excess of your expectations and should be updating you when that happens (although obviously that's harder if you don't have the initial conversation on how long something should take).

They therefore won't be surprised if you raise a query on excessive time charged without warning - that's part of the reason they give you the time postings. If appropriate there will be occasions where time should be written off - especially if they went beyond the scope of the engagement in terms of hours / failed to keep you updated that what should have taken an hour took them 15 / spent too long on something because of their own mistakes or inefficiencies.

Time charged should be good time, not you paying for their inefficiencies or mistakes. But equally if you never tell them your expectations or that you don't want to pursue every avenue regardless of costs or likelihood of success, they can't act on it.

You can take a bit more control in your working relationship with your legal advisers. I know it can feel a bit like going to the dentist or seeing the head teacher, but it doesn't have to be and you don't have to just passively accept whatever they do or go with the flow. You can direct more and actively instruct or question.

[quote MacadamiaMarge]@millymoo1202 yes this is what gets me. I have to support myself and two children and he swans off with a large chunk of the assets and the majority of his (large) salary. For just himself![/quote]
If it's any slight comfort, although you won't ever get formal or written vindication, there will be many people who will quietly note this and judge him accordingly.

@evianlion yes you’re completely right that I need to be more assertive and more in control of things. At first I felt totally out of my depth and didn’t question anything.

It’s a bit like that feeling when you take you bag of pick and mix, or tub of olives, to the counter and it comes to a ridiculous amount but you feel like it’s been done now and you’re committed to paying. Then you leave feeling like an idiot.

That’s what makes me want to just say no more, and do it myself. And whatever will be will be.

I see where you're coming from and why you would be feeling like pushing everyone away to do things yourself and at least feel in control even if the outcome is a bit rubbish. It's a protective mechanism, isn't it?

It's totally understandable that you didn't feel able to take charge in the beginning. Personally, I would encourage you to give changing the working relationship a chance and see if you can feel more in control through being more assertive and perhaps collaborative in how you work with them. It might take a little bit of time to adjust and figure out how, but it would help you to feel less like something that's being done to you or for you, which would in turn build your confidence.

And if you need a fresh start with a new solicitor because the working relationship with the existing one has broken down too much to achieve that now - no harm in making that call. These things happen.

I would fear that jumping straight to doing it all alone is a bit of a knee jerk emotional response that you would regret, a bit like deciding to buy yourself a potted olive tree to try and grow your own olives to avoid being overcharged for a tub of olives or having to see that shopkeeper again. It would certainly be one solution, but perhaps not the most ideal solution.

One of my coping mechanisms when I'm going through something tough and I'm feeling out of control is to actively look for things I can learn from in what's happening and use those learning points to adjust what I'm doing or how I will approach things in future. It gives me back a sense of control and makes it easier not to beat myself up so much when things don't turn out how I hoped, because at least there has been something positive to come from the situation.

Of course ultimately it's your decision and you can only make the best decision you can at the time. There are no perfect decisions really - it's only the benefit of hindsight that misleads us into thinking we could have made a perfect decision!

I think you also need to think hard about ifwhat you’re asking for is ‘fair’ split - from a legal perspective only not moral
I’ve known a lot of women spend thousands chasing what they want and think they are owed when there is pretty much zero chance of ever being awarded it under the fairness principles in law

So, eg if you were fighting for 99% of equity, 80% of pension plus spousal etc, you’ll end up chucking huge amounts away and not get it

If you are asking for 70% of equity and 40% pension as clean break then that’s more likely.

Of course we don’t know both your positions and the above are just illustrations to make a point t…..no point spending thousands to get what you could have achieved anyway

How disconnected are you both in the settlement ?

But you are capable of representing yourself and many people do

30k is a huge amount, especially at this stage.

My STBEX is lying and manipulative, too and there's no way we could sort this amicably. Had to give up on mediation for the same reasons.

I've cut costs by self representing almost from the beginning, and I use a solicitor as and when I need advice (pay as you go basis). So I do the mundane stuff, have a call when I need to find out what to do next, or get advice - and then go away and do it. I'm using a barrister for hearings.

My costs are less than £4k so far plus the pensions report. STBEX is represented and his legal fees are more than double mine (he earns more so can afford it).

Maybe that's a route that would suit you?

Sounds like you may need a forensic accountant if loads of his money seems to have disappeared somewhere...

@RandomMess

Sounds like you may need a forensic accountant if loads of his money seems to have disappeared somewhere...

Good shout.

OP how has he "lost" lots of money? Just disappeared? Gambled? What's his explanation. If he's hiding assets then you'll need to find out where they are...

As we haven’t got into the full swing of negotiations yet, all I have suggested to him is that me and the children stay in the house until a specified point in the future, we share mortgage payments, I have a provision for a car and some child maintenance. I haven’t even mentioned his pension or spousal support (which I believe he will have to pay based on our circumstances).

He rejected this completely. He says he wants a clean break, house sold, me and kids to move into rented accommodation to allow him to buy a new house.

I think I’m being fair. My way allows us both to own a property and both receive equity in the future, while providing for the children in the short-term. But as a pp said, this may cause problems down the line that I haven’t foreseen.

Maybe a forensic accountant would be a good idea, I’ll look into it. So far I know he’s lost money basically gambling. But the other accounts/payments are a mystery.

I think having a solicitor on a pay as you go basis would be great. There are so many minor things I could easily do myself that are costing me hundreds through them.

Sounds like a Mesher would do what you want - my understanding though is that Courts are less likely to award them nowadays unless the children are older (ie so the "trigger" point is not too far in the future).

Does your Solicitor offer a pay as you go type of service (I think it's also called "Unbundled" service)?

^^adding to above - Courts will put children's needs first. If it is possible to rehome you and the children and still achieve a clean break, then I think it would be harder to argue for a Mesher though.