Child Arrangement Order - Final Hearing - Advice please!

WhyDoIFeelAwful · 13/06/2021 18:59

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caringcarer · 13/06/2021 21:27

Do you.have full text messages on your phone? It could be that when his doctor mentions incident you can ask judge if you can ask court clerk to read full text for correct context. If you tell the truth.and give context they can't trip you up. Stay calm, talk slowly and clearly and if his solicitor tries to cut you off turn to judge and say i have not finished my response.

caringcarer · 13/06/2021 21:36

I went through a similar situation with my ex. His solicitor kept trying to cut me off but I turned to judge and said i had not my completed my response. Judge turned to his solicitor and said let me finish. Don't be bullied by his solicitor. He kept trying to make me give a yes or no response, so not allow for context. I just kept giving a longer response to allow context. Judge told his solicitor a couple of times to let me finish. I could see ex getting angry. Then when he had to speak he was very aggressive and derogatory towards me. My solicitor just let my ex rant about me, so effectively hanging himself. Good luck.

JanFebAnyMonth · 13/06/2021 21:36

Have you not got a solicitor, as DA was involved?

Presumably Cafcass have spoken to both of you?

caringcarer · 13/06/2021 21:37

Think about the questions that migjt be asked and plan out your responses in advance. Make a crib sheet incase your mind goes blank. Key words.

sensecheck11 · 13/06/2021 21:42

I had to go to court for COA. We both had barristers and in the end he agreed to pretty much all what I wanted so didn't need to be cross examined and judge didn't make ultimate decision. As we agreed the specifics between barristers 'at court'. How old are kids ? Will any arrangements change dramatically from what has been happening in practice ?

Be clear on what you want v want ex wants v what you're prepared to agree. The main ones are Christmas, school hols, leaving country, notice period, emergency travel for family abroad, Mother's Day, Father's Day. If you always travel abroad to specific country then get this country written into COA, eg pre agreed holiday to that country. If he never agrees to how you split summer then get it written into the agreement. Eg dad has first 9 nights. Also make sure that any alternative weekends or midweeks are 'term time ' only. That way when it is school holidays it makes it simpler and the ex won't be coming back to you to try and negotiate. Also get a 'lives with' order that is the kids live with you. Good luck. It's so draining

Rainbowdropz · 13/06/2021 23:07

@Splashingincuddles I had my final hearing for the CAO nearly two weeks ago. My hearing was listed for a day and a half. The first day was used to timetable a schedule and for cross examinations of my ex, the CAFCASS officer who wrote the section 7 report and myself. The second day was used for the decision. I'm not sure if you're self representing or have legal representation, but my solicitor advised me to review all of my submitted statements and evidence thoroughly so that if I was asked anything it would correspond with what was submitted - as some things have happened a while ago, so you can forget some of the details. At my hearing, even though it was online my ex was allowed to ask a question then the courts clerk would phrase it into a question. My ex was a litigant in person, so it was beneficial for me as they could see how much of a d*ck he was.

I would just say think before you speak. If you can have a bottle of water or a glass of water, so that if you need to stop to think, you can use the water to drink as thinking time. It will help calm your nerves, while you think.

I hope that helps.

StoneColdBitch · 13/06/2021 23:17

@Splashingincuddles

I am currently in the process of getting divorced and we have not been able to reach an agreement on child arrangements so a final Hearing is scheduled for Tuesday. I don't feel particularly well prepared for this and I am so nervous about whether the Judge will be able to see through my ex-husband's twisty and manipulative manner.

We have both submitted statements but it is so frustrating to see how untruthful my husband has been; he quotes things out of context, quotes partial text messages that therefore imply something that is the opposite of what the full text message would have, and blatantly lies! He says that we had 'discussions' and reached an agreement (we didn't) and has made me out to be an unfit mother due to a (well managed) health problem.

I left him due to domestic abuse (which he denies) and I got a no-notice Non-Molestation Order which then became an Undertaking on the advice of my solicitor. He is cocky about this, however, saying that it 'had no merit' which is why I accepted Undertakings.

He has continued to harass me since the evidence went in, so I know the Judge isn't going to take any of his most recent behaviour into account. The children suffer because of his behaviour during handovers and his obstruction of me trying to make plans for them (e.g. extra-curricular activities). Essentially, he uses them to punish me.

What makes me most anxious is that during a previous Hearing his solicitor said he wanted a full day's Hearing as he wanted 'the opportunity to cross examine the mother'. So this is what I'm asking about, really. How will I be cross examined? Will he try to trip me up and tie me up in knots (like my ex husband always used to do?) Any advice on how to deal with this, how to make the best impression and what I can do to ensure my children benefit from the absolute right decision being made?

I am not looking to stop my ex-husband seeing the children, but I have proposed an arrangement that would mean they spend the majority of their time with me, because I am sure as sure can be that that is in their best interests.

Thank you for any advice - would love to hear from you if you have been through a Final Hearing.

In what way is he obstructing you planning extracurricular activities?

Original poster

Splashingincuddles · 14/06/2021 06:44

@JanFebAnyMonth

Yes I do have a solicitor. I don't feel like she has prepared me well for the Hearing (she hasn't given me any advice!) but I do have faith that she will actually do a good job in the Hearing.

Yes Cafcass have spoken to both of us. I didn't feel like she really got the hang of my concerns, though. When I tried to explain my worries about the children being in my ex's care she cut me off, saying my examples (of what I believe are harm) were just 'different parenting styles'. She was satisfied there were no 'significant safeguarding issues' so that was the end of that.

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Original poster

Splashingincuddles · 14/06/2021 06:46

@caringcarer

Thank you very much for your advice - that's really useful. What sort of questions am I likely to get? Do they go back into past events? I have made loads of notes and read everything over and over again but I won't remember dates etc. I will need to look through all my papers to answer some questions - is that ok?

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Original poster

Splashingincuddles · 14/06/2021 06:51

@sensecheck11

Thank you for that really useful advice. Most of those things have already been ordered at previous hearings. The children are 4 and 6 and the arrangements are not like to significantly change. Really it is an issue of ex wishing to be seen as 'primary carer' (I believe, for financial reasons) so he's bickering over majority care. I have been a stay-at-home-mum since 2019 and ex admits I take care of all day-to-day care, appointments, school etc - he just wants 'more nights' without any of the actual care.

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Original poster

Splashingincuddles · 14/06/2021 06:54

@Rainbowdropz

Thank you - that does help. I'm so pleased your hearing went well for you. I do have a solicitor and I think she'll do a good job on the day. My ex has a barrister and I'm a bit nervous about being questioned (even though I know I've done everything right!) Mine is online too so I'll have my notes and make sure I have a glass of water.

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Original poster

Splashingincuddles · 14/06/2021 07:01

@StoneColdBitch

He refused to answer a text asking if he would mind doing handover an hour later one day a fortnight so our son could attend a club (texts had been no problem previously). He insisted communication went through solicitors, so that took a long time. He then insisted that he was 'paid his hour back'. This took so long that our son missed the first session of the programme.

I also tried to book our daughter into a club on 'his' day but when he had her in a childminder anyway. This took forever to negotiate through solicitors.

The best interests of the children would have been better met with simple, quick agreement to activities that enrich them and they enjoy, rather than being obstructive just to make things difficult for me.

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StoneColdBitch · 14/06/2021 13:54

[quote Splashingincuddles]@StoneColdBitch

He refused to answer a text asking if he would mind doing handover an hour later one day a fortnight so our son could attend a club (texts had been no problem previously). He insisted communication went through solicitors, so that took a long time. He then insisted that he was 'paid his hour back'. This took so long that our son missed the first session of the programme.

I also tried to book our daughter into a club on 'his' day but when he had her in a childminder anyway. This took forever to negotiate through solicitors.

The best interests of the children would have been better met with simple, quick agreement to activities that enrich them and they enjoy, rather than being obstructive just to make things difficult for me.[/quote]
It's a fairly basic principle of separated parenting that one parent shouldn't unilaterally arrange activities for the other parent's time. I can see his point of view tbh - he may feel like you are trying to erode his time with the children, and control what they do on his time. I agree that it sounds like he should probably have been the bigger person and agreed to what you proposed, but I can very much see his point of view.

Lougle · 14/06/2021 14:07

I must admit that he doesn't seem unreasonable in that regard. If he wanted to arrange things on his nights, then that's up to him, but you can't decide how to use his time.

JanFebAnyMonth · 14/06/2021 14:35

I’m afraid you have to accept that the kind of definition of harm they are likely to take notice or is pretty severe.

You might like to read the Rights of Women legal advice on this, see their website.

auberJohn · 14/06/2021 14:50

My ex does this to try and control me and the relationship the children have with me. It is stressful and unpleasant, which the kids pick up on.

I sincerely hope that at the very least when you dictate an arrangement on your ex's time that you keep it between the both of you, i.e., you don't tell the children as well, which can get their hopes up (quite often they will express disappointment and resentment to the other parent when they say no).

StoneColdBitch · 14/06/2021 15:00

@auberJohn

My ex does this to try and control me and the relationship the children have with me. It is stressful and unpleasant, which the kids pick up on.

I sincerely hope that at the very least when you dictate an arrangement on your ex's time that you keep it between the both of you, i.e., you don't tell the children as well, which can get their hopes up (quite often they will express disappointment and resentment to the other parent when they say no).

Indeed. I'm not for one moment suggesting OP is controlling or abusive, but sadly abusive exes often try to micromanage or undermine the other parent's contact time, so it always makes me cringe when I see it on threads like this - it can cause real problems even if, like OP, the intentions are innocent.

Original poster

Splashingincuddles · 14/06/2021 16:04

@StoneColdBitch

I haven’t made any arrangements in his time and I have never mentioned any plans to the children. I have asked him for permission, and my issue was that he made making his decision as difficult and convoluted as possible as opposed to just saying ‘no’ or ‘yes’.

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CatalinaCasesolver · 14/06/2021 16:37

In my experience the judge will not be interested in the 'he said' 'she said' 'he did' etc they will want to know why your proposal is in the best interest of the kids and will usually have a personal preference ie EOW or 50/50 starting point. My ex's solicitor started trying to slate me and the judge just said 'please be quiet be aren't here to point fingers but to work out what is in the best interest of the kids.'

The best advice I got was to make everything about the children, every point you make needs to lead back to them and what is best for them. Don't get emotional and if your ex starts saying bad things about you don't join in or say anything bad back.

I wasn't cross examined though so I can't help with that bit. Good luck.

StoneColdBitch · 14/06/2021 17:57

[quote Splashingincuddles]@StoneColdBitch

I haven’t made any arrangements in his time and I have never mentioned any plans to the children. I have asked him for permission, and my issue was that he made making his decision as difficult and convoluted as possible as opposed to just saying ‘no’ or ‘yes’.[/quote]
But you shouldn't have tried to cut his contact an hour short on a regular basis, and you shouldn't have tried to arrange activities for his time with the kids. That is inappropriate and I can see why it rang alarm bells and he wanted the help of his lawyer when responding. I know he's the bad guy overall - you said he's abusive - but that doesn't mean that every single thing he does is wrong or unreasonable.

30degreesandmeltinghere · 14/06/2021 18:02

Imo the quickest way to improve your mh and accept things as being out of your hands is to accept your time your plans, his time his plans. My ds went to football alternate weeks. Wasn't an issue. Never ask him any favours - even if they are to benefit the dc - you just give him the power to say no to you.

Original poster

Splashingincuddles · 14/06/2021 21:29

I appreciate everyone’s advice and feedback on the extra-curricular thing, but I’ll be honest and say I was looking for advice and experiences to try to boost my confidence and preparation about tomorrow’s hearing! Thanks to those that have given great advice.

Learning that I’ve done the wrong thing previously is really not boosting my confidence!

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TicketyTickTock · 14/06/2021 21:48

I think you're really trying to continue to give your kids the same experience as they would have had if you'd stayed married. Sadly this wasn't to be. At least by hearing it here tonight you'll be prepared for what is 'normal' in divorced families. You really need to cut your contact right down to the minimum and his time is his. I wouldn't be asking to negotiate anything. Divorced kids often can only do every other week or miss out altogether on certain activities due to contact arrangements. You'll get through this part and the kids will only get older.

StoneColdBitch · 14/06/2021 22:01

@Splashingincuddles

I appreciate everyone’s advice and feedback on the extra-curricular thing, but I’ll be honest and say I was looking for advice and experiences to try to boost my confidence and preparation about tomorrow’s hearing! Thanks to those that have given great advice.

Learning that I’ve done the wrong thing previously is really not boosting my confidence!

But hopefully it's helpful to understand that you're not right about everything, and your ex isn't wrong about everything (though undoubtedly he's a twat!). Hopefully you'll go into tomorrow in a spirit of compromise, rather than assuming your ex is completely wrong about everything and needs to be ordered to comply with what you want. Good luck. Hope you get the best outcome for your children.