How long to 'try' to be 'amicable' or do I just file the petition?

[bananamango]

Hello, I've posted on a couple of threads - last year when I was thinking of divorce, and over the past couple of weeks since I finally told STBXH that I wanted out. So sorry but this is another long one...

We are 'trying' to be amicable but he's struggling I know - he really wants to have a right go at me. My worries are a) I think he will try to hide assets and so b) I can't decide whether I should keep being amicable in the hope that we can figure it out on our own or just file the petition so that the official Form E might slightly scare him into thinking twice.

I'm getting different advice from two really trusted friends and I'm struggling to know which way to jump.

I'm the one who is instigating this, but he has known for a very long time that I'm not coping with his descent into mad conspiracy rabbit holes including QAnon and lots more. That doesn't stop him from blaming me for EVERYTHING and telling me I have a number of different psychological illnesses.

Anyway since I told him three weeks ago, we've maintained a fairly civil demeanour. We are living like slightly uncomfortable housemates. We have only had one conversation about next steps and that was fairly general - we would sell our house and aim to buy two smaller houses in the same-ish area. We would not talk to the children (3DSs - 17, 15, 12) until we had made more progress on the practical side and could tell them more with certainty about new living arrangements.

However, now that we are through the first really hard bit (it took me years to get the courage to tell him) I am desperate to move on.

I know we really need to discuss things in more detail - we have another house which we need to decide what to do with but he keeps saying he hasn't had time to think about it as he has had to do the tax and has a couple of work deadlines this week.

Plus we have other savings and investments and he has about 30 years of probably really decent pension built up - I have literally no idea about pensions. I have a little bit but not much. A small one from my job at home before I came to the UK, then a few years here and there from various jobs here but I spent nearly 15 years out of the workforce as a SAHM.

So there's quite a bit of financial stuff to sort out. He will think that it is all his as he brought all the money into the marriage and also he has always been fairly controlling, almost bullying and in arguments I get slightly flustered and hate arguing so he ends up winning.

So one of my friends says to stay patient and try to sort out the houses first and then deal with the other financial assets - savings investments etc. But the other friend says that every day I follow that strategy is another day where he can be trying to shift/hide assets as he has control over them and they are mostly in his name.

I'm so sorry this is so long but your advice / shared experiences would be so helpful. I'm feeling a bit lost and frozen and don't know which way to jump.

Thanks so much.

Didn't want to read and run. Given how long you've been married you'll find that regardless of who's name and who paid most assets are seen as jointly owned.
Start doing some proper research of your own and if possible gather documents of all assets such as savings, pensions, house info.

Honestly, I'd file if you haven't done already.

There are big delays on everything so even if you file now, you're looking at months before you'll get a hearing.

I found things were really being dragged out and having filed form A gave a deadline, even if it was months away.

You can still come to an agreement if you've filed, but it does give structure. I tried the mediation approach but my STBEX kept dodging providing paperwork so I lost patience and filed. He's still not produced everything but he's now answerable to the Court.

Good luck.

I would file, and get a financial proceedings underway ASAP. Speak to a solicitor about your concerns about hiding assets. You may be able to get freezing orders on accounts etc.

Get your own passwords set up for any joint account you have. Print all the statements. If your DH keeps his financial documents in unlocked filling cabinets you can copy them, but you must not enter a locked room, break into his computer, open his mail etc.

Try to find out as much as you can by legal means. Anything you learn illegally can't be used anyway.

@Itsybitsydooda

Didn't want to read and run. Given how long you've been married you'll find that regardless of who's name and who paid most assets are seen as jointly owned. Start doing some proper research of your own and if possible gather documents of all assets such as savings, pensions, house info.

Thanks! Yes I understood that they would be considered jointly owned after 20 years of marriage - but my worry is that there are significant savings that are in his sole name and he is clever and will try to hide them. He has worked in finance his whole career and knows as well as anyone how he could hide stuff. So he might not list some of it - he will be worried about revealing the existence of at least one of the investments - and all of the statements are addressed to him anyway so it is illegal for me to rely on those.

My lawyer is quite punchy tho and says he will chase STBEX down - hire a forensic accountant if necessary. I guess I'd just like to avoid a dragged out nasty fight but I am probably being naive there.

@noideawhatusernametochoose thank you. TBH that's the way I've been strongly leaning but it's just that I appreciate the advice of my friend who is telling me to be patient and I don't want her to feel I'm not listening. She's actually the one I have to think for getting me to this point. She got fierce and firm with me mid-last year and I think I got scareder of her than STBXH so I had to 'obey'! I had been unhappy for so many years and it was down to her that I finally made myself do something about it - talk to lawyers, choose one, get some documents together, draft a petition, and finally tell him.

But that said, my strong natural pull is to move things along as the slow patient thing could potentially go on for months and months and I've let this go on for literally 10+ years so I don't want to waste any more on it.

There are always forensic accountants if you strongly suspect assets have been hidden.

@HosannainExcelSheets thanks for your reply here and on my other thread. Really appreciate it. As I said above, he knows what he's doing in terms of financial dealings and he'll def want no-one to know about the existence of one of the assets - but that might play in my favour as I know what/where it is! Unless he's tried to sneak it somewhere but I have photographic evidence. Sorry it sounds so cloak n dagger. One day I will explain! I have copies of emails that were sent to his personal email account but I had that account on my phone with his knowledge as he's tech illiterate and wanted me to sort out a problem with him having dual LinkedIn accounts a while back. Would that be legal??

ATM my thinking is that when he gets through the work deadline he's on - hopefully by close of play tomorrow - I will have to have an extra weeta-bix Friday/Saturday and have a conversation - difficult as it will be - about next steps that is frank and more detailed re money, kids, property etc.

Wish me luck!

@bananamango I had a similar dilemma to you and we had many conversations about what to do about separating finances.

STBXH was desperate for me not to file for divorce citing unreasonable behaviour so we talked for a long time about having a separation agreement instead and divorcing after 2 years apart. I wasted 6 months trying to be amicable and in the end we couldn't agree.

I really regret the time I wasted on trying to come to an agreement. I filed on unreasonable behaviour grounds this week because at least now any financial agreement will be final.

I got suckered into wanting to be nice, avoiding court giving ex time etc etc. Over 2 years later I finally filed in court because he is showing no signs of trying to agree any other way.

I suspect that your situation will be similar. Lots of lip service to doing things nicely, but ultimately no intention of doing anything that isn't self serving.

@Somefantasticplace I am definitely nervous about the UB grounds. The problem there (wrote at length about this on other threads here and in relationships) is that he is a total - and I mean TOTAL - conspiracy nutcase. So all my grounds are 'he thinks Hillary Clinton eats monkeys and that's why she's ill', 'he thinks the world is run by satanic paedophiles' - he will a) not see how any of that is unreasonable because he's right (!) and b) not want 'THEM' ie the establishment ie the judge to know what he thinks or the security services might come for him.

However I had a feeling things could work out like your situation too. He is a world champ prevaricator. NOTHING would happen in our lives if it were left to him. So he will try to drag this out anyways as that is his natural reaction to everything.

I think that like you I need to just file, because he will hate everything about giving me half of 'his' money so it's never really going to get easier to deal with the financials.

@HosannainExcelSheets yep I think my situation is similar to yours in that way. He is a very selfish person.

My friend really strongly advises me to be patient and not rush things - to get the money out of the houses, set my self up, and then chase him about the other assets. But I just worry that that is months away, and by then god knows where they are and I have to pay so much more in legal / forensic accounting to find out where he's hidden them. And at the end of the day the court will start at 50:50 and work from there so I don't see how I can lose by filing sooner, whereas if I try the amicable route - as you've found out - you can lose a lot in time, energy, emotion and possibly money.

@bananamango the UB grounds can be very bland. I used things like "the respondent does not socialise with the applicant, causing her distress" and "the respondent does not support the applicant when she is unwell" (I have a chronic illness), and "the respondent does not engage in family life, caused the applicant to feel lonely and rejected".

You can discuss freezing orders on his assets and also make it clear that he gave you access to his email account (e.g. send a note saying "remember when you asked me to set up your email account on my phone? Just checking if you want me to add it to yours also" or something similar. Get evidence that he gave you his passwords etc.)

Good luck, stay strong, and just get on and file for divorce and form A for financial settlement together.

What is your lawyer suggesting?
If you don’t have one, get one today.

@FelicityPike I haven't spoken to my lawyer in a while. He drafted a petition for me that is fairly punchy which is why I'm nervous of STBEX reaction. My friends are advising me not to speak to him as he is expensive (and I do tend to go on when I get someone on the phone!) and only email sparingly with very defined questions. I was planning on emailing him AFTER this weekend when I intend to 'try' to have a conversation about next steps re houses, money split and kids.

@HosannainExcelSheets thanks. The grounds that my lawyer has drafted are - as I said to @FelicityPike really punchy. Do you think I should try toning them down? We haven't even got anywhere near talking about formalities. The one conversation we've had so far was only a week after he'd acknowledged that I wasn't going to change my mind so we were both still feeling bruised. So it was fairly general like we'll sell our family home, he wanted more time to decide about the other property, and we'd try to live near enough each other to make it easy for the kids, wouldn't tell them til we had more sorted about future living arrangements. That was it. At the time I was just glad to get through it without him shouting and me crying. Now, two weeks later, I'm feeling stronger and decidedly more desperate to just get away from him. I loathe and detest him. So I feel like I just want to blurt it all out - let's sort the money and I'm going to petition you next week. My friend suggested that talking to him about the mechanics of the petition and that I would have to say stuff about his UB might mean he is less likely to react when he actually gets it. Not sure about that one.

You sound like a lovely person OP and from what you have said you are trying to do your utmost to a) not upset your STBXH too much and b) please your friend who is telling you to go slowly.
Sadly going through a divorce is one point in your life where you have to put yourself front and centre - and not tip toe around the needs of others.
It sounds like you know a fair bit about your husbands finances - even if you don't have evidence as such. I would start the ball rolling asap TBH - divorce takes a long time in itself so stalling at the start is just unfortunately going to prolong the process. Think about what you want to end up with - in terms of childcare arrangements and where you could live - then make a plan to get what you need.
With regards your reasons for divorce on the petition - it really doesn't matter what you put. Toning things down may help with placating your STBXH but ultimately you could put whatever you like. Your ex can agree to the divorce but not agree to the reasons - that wouldn't stop the process going through.

Also I would say your children are plenty old enough to pick up on what's 'going on with their parents - so a straight conversation with them might help them start to comes to terms with the changes that are coming. You mention another property - would it be suitable for either yourself or husband to move there so you are not under the same roof?

Dont tell him you are petitioning, as he might decide to do it first and that is not ideal. Better to be the petitioner as you have more control over the timeline, and if he's procrastinating he could drag it out.

File, make the unreasonable behaviour reasons as gentle as possible, no need to aggravate unnecessarily. Some lawyers will stir up conflict because it makes them more £££ in the end. Don't allow it unnecessarily, save your strongly worded letters for when you need it i.e. if he doesn't fill out Form E in a timely / correct / truthful manner.

You can complete and file the petition yourself if you like, its not hard, keep lawyers for the hard stuff. Print off Form E once you've filed and and hand it to him - offer to complete them together - why not? Make the most of having to live with him - talk through it together and don't allow him to leave assets off if you know they exist. Stare him out over it if necessary. Dont leave it with lawyers and accountants to get the truth if you possibly can avoid it, as that quickly becomes v expensive.

Look up 'grey rock' with regards to the conspiracy theory nonsense, freeze that out and dont engage.

@bananamango I understand your worries about the grounds and how 'nice' to make them. I agonised over this for ages and tried to go down the route of showing them to him so we could come to a wording that we could agree on. This was over 6 months ago.

It didn't work at all and finally he said that there would never be any wording that he would agree so I just updated my list of grounds to make some of them more recent and filed without showing them to him again.

I expect a massive reaction (although everything I've said is true) and he has threatened to defend the divorce at massive cost but I'm pressing on. I finally decided that I needed to do what I want and stop trying to please or placate him.

Of course the 3 months of counselling helped me get there

@bananamango - you should sit down with your lawyer and make it clear that you are deciding whether they are right for your case. Lay it all out, explain why you want blander UB statements, explain the financial situation.

Ask:

Have they experience in this type of divorce. If so, what?

Have they advised with a view to low conflict, quick resolution.

Do they match your ideas of how you would ideally like the divorce to proceed?

You can choose a different lawyer at this stage with nothing much lost. It gets more expensive later in proceedings.

@HosannainExcelSheets it's funny you should say that about the lawyer. I had intro calls with three so that I could make a choice. One I instantly decided against, one I felt really naturally drawn to and she would have been my natural gut-instinct choice, but I've ended up picking the third. He came recommended by one of my three best friends - the girls who have been there for me for a long time and have put in hours of patient listening. Anyway her partner had this guy up against him, representing his EX and he said that this lawyer was totally all over his own and he would give anything to have been able to swap lawyers with his wife.

This lawyer is an older guy, 40 years experience, and is fairly blunt and forthright tho definitely not rude and aggressive. I ended up choosing him because I gave all three girlfriends the biogs of all three lawyers and they all voted for this guy. I went with him kind of out of respect for the amount of time they'd put in to helping me - when possibly I should have just gone with the one I - for reasons I can't actually articulate - felt naturally drawn to and more comfortable with. To be fair to my friends they all even said the same thing - you aren't looking for a new best friend you're looking for someone who can stare down your STBXH who will at best play hardball and at worst be obstructive and hide money.

Problem is I'm embarrassed to say this guy has cost me a lot already - almost £1k - for a couple of phone calls and letters and drawing up a petition which I didn't actually think was that great. Compared to what I should/will get out of the settlement that's OK, even possibly write it off, but it still feels like a lot.

I wish I'd taken more time to research the DIY bits first. But I was so scared about what my controlling STBXH would do that I felt I needed to have some big gun lined up alongside me before I had the courage to do it.

@NewYearHere20 thanks for your msg. That's really kind! TBH I do find it hard to believe I should just go for what I want - that's how I've ended up staying married to this man for so long when I should have left years and years ago. It started out with me being easygoing which turned into obedience which turned into control.

Medium-long term dream is to return to Australia with my children. I have a huge family there who would be so pleased we are back and would be an amazing support after the pretty cold reception I've had from his very small family - mother and one sister. But it's a tough thing to ask the kids if they would leave their dad here and move to the other side of the world. They do like the idea of living there but obvs they've never had to think in terms of dad won't be coming.

If they won't go then neither will I as I won't leave them. In that scenario I really struggle to define what I want. We moved to where he grew up in the northwest three nearly four years ago and I don't feel settled here - I have a couple of really good friends I've made but I don't really feel like this is my forever.

I've spent the longest time in London but I couldn't afford to go back there. That's where our other house I could not afford to buy him out so I think we'll have to sell it but he is dragging his feet on discussing that.

If the kids won't go to Australia I'll just stay here til eldest in L6 finishes and then see what the younger two would like to do.

In terms of childcare, kids are 17, 15 and 12 so my understanding is they are old enough to make their own decisions about who they want to live with. I would definitely want them to stay with me most of the time and do EOW and a night or two during the week with him but it will obvs depend on what they want and we don't know until we ask them. I'm certain he will ask for 50:50. I think you are right tho - I think we should talk to them sooner rather than later so they can start coming to terms with it.

@Somefantasticplace OMG our situations sound so similar! I totally agree re wordings - I don't think my STBXH will accept any form of words that suggests he is at fault. He is adamant that everything is all my fault.

I think I'll end up taking everyone on here's really good advice and go ahead and file. I think I'll wait til beginning of next week tho. I will try to have one conversation with him over the weekend and see where we get to. But I won't tell him that's what I'm going to do. I won't mention petitions if I can at all avoid it.

I was only thinking today that I should look into some counselling. I need it after the mad 20 years I've just had.

Thanks a take care.

It's not going to get more amicable. You have already decided you will not stay on in the family home. Both houses are just part of all the assets that will have to be divided and I don't see the benefit in messing around with assets piecemeal. From what you say, I don't think you will be able to reason or "figure out" or have constructive arguments. You agreed to give him time to think about the other house. Ask him if he has come to a conclusion as you are proceeding with the Petition and it would be useful if you could communicate his thoughts on it to your solicitor.

@WellIWasInTheNeighbourhoo thanks for your msg. And thanks for your advice - all really excellent and helpful. I will go ahead and tone down the UB grounds just to save the total explosion, and I won't tell him, well not until I'm literally about to hit send! Re filling out Form E together I love your 'why not'!!

You are so right but the answer, up until now, has been that he has kept tight control over the money and online access to it. Don't get me wrong he's never 'given me my money' and that's all I get. He's actually so clever - he's let me feel I have free reign but that's only over things that he agrees with - like supermarket shopping inexpensive clothes for the kids etc. I'm not a spending/shopping kinda girl - I grew up in the Australian outback and whilst I do like nice stuff I've never gone overboard. Always been fairly thrifty - unnecessarily so. But what he's done is the passive aggressive kind of thing where he looks pained and distraught every time a bill for stuff like electricity or water or basic house repairs comes in and acts as if it's either that or eating - which is completely ridiculous. In most people's view we're really comfortable but he always leaves this impression that we're on the breadline which over a long period of time kind of seeps into my subconscious so I get scared of talking to him about any expenditure.

Plus I generally hate conflict and he is a short fused and irrascible person. He is just not kind - not nice. So I've dreaded these confrontations with him.

Anyway that's the whole point of where I am isn't it. I am NO LONGER SCARED - I just need to get this sorted and get out.

One of my other friends pointed me in the direction of grey rock and that's what I've been doing for a few months now re his conspiracy junk. Like I think I've said on other threads - I actually don't care any more whether he is right or wrong. I might wake up tomorrow and find that the world is indeed run by satanic paedophiles. But I don't give a flying *&^% - I'm so so ground down by the misery he is constantly peddling that I just don't want to hear it any more.

@bananamango I sympathise, I agonised over the wording of the UB list, and ended up going down the very bland route, almost like it was inevitable. Things like 'he hasn't slept in the same room for 2 years', 'he doesn't socialise with me making me feel lonely' etc. It really doesn't matter what reasons you put. I wanted my STBEX to agree to them quickly so made them general, even though the real reasons are FAR worse and could fill pages.
It's important just to get the ball rolling. File online. My Decree Nisi court date is set for 6 weeks after I filed for divorce. Once it's filed, he knows you're serious.
PM me if you want more advice on the filing. I scoured the internet for weeks before getting my wording right!