50/50 child custody

[atr79gb]

Hi all,

I'm currently going through a divorce and am planning on pushing for 50/50 custody.

I'm lucky enough to have a flexible job that enables me to commit to this. We currently share the child care and I would like for this to continue after the divorce.

When my wife has our 2 children (aged 5 and 8), they sleep in her bed, often after nights out drinking with friends. As such, this has created a situation where they find it very difficult to sleep away from her.

Although we share looking after the children, I'm worried that they will find it difficult to sleep outside of the family home. We currently live together and am concerned that they will find it hard to transition to living in 2 separate homes.

My wife recently asked my 8 year old son who he would prefer to live with. I find this appalling and the children should be entitled to a life with both parents without having to choose.

At what age are children's views on where they want to live taken into consideration? I'm concerned that they will never want to sleep away from her. This seems a little unfair as I share 50% of the child care at the moment - as we live in the same house, the sleeping arrangements haven't been a problem up until now. Does anyone have any tips on making transitioning to 2 homes work?

I'm afraid the rights and welfare of the children will be taken into account 100% of the time. They are still so young! You have to take things slowly and if they struggle to sleep outside of the family home then you just need to give them more time. Children should be allowed to state their views and preferences, they have rights too. Get this wrong and it will affect them for the rest of their lives eg; self harm, eating disorders, under age drinking, drugs etc (speaking from first hand experience on this one!!!)

Yes children's thoughts and feelings are and should be taken into consideration but it is also more and more understood that children are less affected by separation when they are able to sustain the same level of relationship with both parents. As you share care at the moment and your children are not babies their should be no real reason for your children not to be with you half the time and your ex half the time providing it is safe and possible.

Oh and children can cope very well with different rules at different houses. So sleeping with one parent but not sleeping with the other is fine. 8 and 5 are not too young to be being encouraged to sleep away from a parent. Apart from anything else they may want soon to go on school/cub/brownie/friend sleep overs and should be encouraged to start being more independent.

take it slowly and put them first. Dont try and point score and make sure it has to be 50/50 make it an organic process. You will always be their parent

The research and received wisdom these days is that children do best when they have contact with both parents. But more importantly, when their parents are amicable. My kids are the same ages and I didn't ask them who they'd rather live with as I think that's very unfair. We do 50/50. My ex was asked who he wanted to live with when his parents split at 10yo. He said his dad and so did his brother. They both stayed with their mum

I can add some context here having split with my ex over a year ago with a (then) 4 year old son whose mother insisted on him sleeping in her bed every night, despite me encouraging him to sleep independently. We too shared care throughout our marriage, although she disputed this and didn't want equal shared care after divorce, so we had to go to court for child arrangements and in the end magistrates ordered a 50:50 shared care routine.

I moved out of the family home and into a 3 bed house nearby, and what I would say in terms of sleeping is that is has been fairly bumpy, as his mother still insists on sleeping with him in the FMH. Efforts to get him to sleep independently have been stymied by her behaviour which encourages him to be as dependent on her as possible.

Because of this I've got a second bed in my master bedroom for him to sleep there and this has gone down very well - he doesn't like it however if you're in a different room to him :/ and would insist on co-sleeping with me in that situation - it doesn't bother him which parent he stays with so long as he has someone nearby when he's sleeping, it must be a comfort thing that has been drilled into him.

Have you stayed with your children away from the mother before? When I separated from my ex I took my son on holiday where he was fine away from his mum (again in a twin room), and he's never bothered about her not being there generally.

However, my son is getting wise with discipline etc where if you tell him off he'll say he wants to go to his mummy's house, which probably explains why amicable co-parenting works best, rather than having a loonie ex whose own self-interest trumps the needs of her child.

Is your ex a "stay-at-home mum"? If she is, expect a fight (she probably won't want her lifestyle to change)! Indeed, my ex still doesn't have a job to this day.

@IsItBetter your own experience sounds really similar to my own situation!

All through our marriage, I encouraged my children to be independent and sleep in their own beds. However, my wife always insisted on having the children sleep in her own bed.

She is a stay at home mum and refuses to work. She would essentially like to continue the lifestyle she has now but doesn't really have the financial resources to do so. She has told me she will contest the 50/50 custody. However I think 50/50 custody is in the children's interests as it's what they are currently used to. I understand supporting the children financially is not the only consideration - however it seems that I would be able to support them financially and this would be more difficult for my wife as she is refusing to work. She also doesn't drive and refuses to learn.

I planned on taking the children away for a couple of nights earlier this year. However right at the last minute, she wouldn't let the children go. We're not divorced yet so there wasn't much that I could do.

So this is probably going to be a very difficult and expensive fight. Have you invited her to mediation? that would be the first step, see if she will agree to some mediated baby steps of allowing you a weekend or even just a single night away with the kids to see how you get on.

@IsItBetter - You might well be right! I've had plenty of evenings and weekends with just me and the kids. She often stays over at friends or boyfriends' houses.

My wife doesn't have a problem with this but she is reluctant for me to have the children staying over anywhere outside of the family home. Basically, she wants to have everything on her terms.

She doesn't have a lot of money due to not working so she probably wouldn't be in a position to dispute any agreement.

We're starting mediation next week.

50/50 is not often given by courts anymore as it it disruptive and doesn't allow for routine. You are best working with the mother here, not against her. And just because she isn't working doesn't mean she doesn't have the means to fight you. If it goes to court she can represent herself. I'm reckoning she isn't working as she is a stay at home mum bringing up your kids so you can work while her own career path goes down the pan?
I'm sorry, but you sound like you don't have your children's best interests at heart at all. You just want to punish the mum. If you know the kids will find it hard to transition, why force it on them? You can still see them regularly without them sleeping over.

@delilahbucket thanks for your comments.

I work 50% of the week at home and work flexibly so I can do school runs and child care during the day.

The current childcare arrangements are pretty well balanced. It was a deliberate decision to work flexibly so I'm able to support the children better. If I do school runs or activities in the day, I just change my work hours to work around this.

It's my wife's decision not to work. But what I do know is that it is possible to balance child care and work if you are dedicated.

I understand your concern. However as my children are used to seeing me all of the time, surely it can't be in their interests for them to see me much less than this? I do believe it's important for children to have a strong relationship with both parents.

I completely disagree with @delilahbucket and think you sound like a very loving father who wants what is best for your children. You can tell this just from the flexible working.
Me and my ex partner have a very good arrangement. He has them from Friday to Monday every weekend as he works away during the week and he has them half of all school holidays.
Your ex sounds like she may use the children as a weapon. She has done this already with the holding.

Holiday even

My daughter is 50/50 between me and her dad. It works well and she is happy being able to go to whichever parent after school within reason. It also means that my ex and I have regular time to get on with our own lives. What is not to like? Personally if the OPs tale is accurate though I would be going for full custody in the interests of the children's safety at least then the compromise is still acceptable...

Hi again, good that you are starting mediation.

The other poster is correct in that the mother can just self-represent in court regardless of access to money if mediation breaks down.

You should try to arrange a couple of nights away via mediation with just you and the kids IMO and get her to agree it in writing... she may use the fact that the children haven't been away from the family home without her if it goes to court as an argument to limit contact... the court process also takes a very long time so be prepared to have your contact limited unfairly if it goes that far.

If she doesn't agree to a couple of nights away, you can use that to show she is being unreasonable. Staying away from the home with the kids without their mother will also be psychologically useful for her to see there is no barrier to doing so and that it's a positive experience for the children.

You shouldn't try to overplay your hand by demanding full custody IMO (unless there are any major welfare concerns) as a) it won't be granted anyway and b) it will make you look controlling and unreasonable. Keeping to the line that you want to preserve the status quo in the interests of the children and that 50:50 is the ideal solution will serve you well. 50:50 is more likely to be given if each parent praises the other's skills.

If it goes to court CAFCASS will get involved, and again unless you have genuine concerns about the mother you want to present a positive case for co-parenting, be positive about the mother and avoid mentioning any negatives.

You can, however, also note that she is asking children who they want to live with, that she is presenting a false dichotomy and working against the established routine and their interests. You need to build a case basically to support your goals.

I don't believe that courts give weight to children's views at their age, but am unsure about the 8 year old (as my case our son was only 4).

In Scotland it is 12 years old when they can express a view.

50/50 should be the norm. Good in you for not doing what a lot of other mums do and only permit 2 days a fortnight.

I think 50/50 childcare is awful. I don't know what the courts do now, it's been 30 years since my divorce but how can children live a norma life being shuttled from house to house. My son at the time of my divorce refused it, he wanted to live at home for the majority as all his stuff was there and he wanted to be with me.

I don’t understand how you share the childcare if you work and she doesn’t .

@Starlight456 - I work flexible hours. So, for example, on the days when I'm looking after the kids, I'll work from home 9-3 and then spend the rest of the day looking after the kids. I'll work extra hours, either early morning or in the evening once the kids have gone to bed to make it up to an 8 hour day.

I appreciate this arrangement doesn't work for everyone but, for me, it enables me to maximize my time with the children.

There are some very judgemental attitudes towards sleeping arrangements.

My children sleep with me. I am friends with a few parents who also have various forms of co-sleeping and bed-sharing arrangements. In all cases this is lead by the children but also in all cases others have claimed, at one time or another, the mums have insisted on it.

My husband could claim I've insisted on bedsharing, if we split. That's because I've been the one who has not wanted to force the children into something they are not ready for. We've tried getting them sleeping more independently and it really isn't right for one child in particular. That child happily goes to sleepovers, etc so it's not holding the child back. My children are quite eloquent. The one who most wants to bedshare just doesn't like being alone. They can cope with the company of another child for a night or two but having to do without an adult on a regular basis makes them anxious. I was very similar as a child. Yet I was able to sleep alone just fine from tween years and into adulthood.

If my husband and I were to split (which came very close to happening). He would see them as much as possible during waking hours but let the children sleep where they felt most comfortable. That would be in their best interests.

You need to set aside your ideas of what your child or your ex should be doing. Instead you need to be reflecting really hard and considering what your children truly need and is in their best interests. So does your ex.

You mention you do lots of school runs and shuffling to activities. The children don't have to sleep at your house for that to continue. They can continue with a routine that is close to their current one as possible, which involves lots of your involvement during waking hours and them sleeping with mum.

Also, as your ex is a SAHM who carries the mental load? The bulk of childcare isn't actually just about the physical time with children. There's all the planning, sorting, organising, scheduling, etc that goes on. In the majority of households that usually falls to the woman, even when dad takes children places, etc. Often the work that mental load goes unseen by the one not taking it on. That may not be the case for you at all but I thought I'd raise the question for you to consider.

@Hobsbawm yes the father can do all those things but how is it fair that the father never gets to put his child to bed or wake up with them in a morning?
I find it very sad that some mums have this attitude. My children thrive from having such a great relationship with their dad.

@Greggers2017 - I agree with your comments. I think it's really important for the children to have a relationship with both parents and that should include staying overnight.

Often it seems the father's role in their children's lives is much reduced after a divorce which is sad.

We've both played an important role in bringing up the children so far and I see no reason why that should change after the divorce.

I think your wife will probably change her mind when she gets used to it

If you’ve been looking after them 50/50 now then you have nothing to fear. Just stick to your guns.

Perhaps she is afraid of working because she’s been out of the workplace for so long. Is there any way you can encourage her? It’ll be good for her in the long run and for you too as it will help her to loosen the grip.

There are other ways for a father to have a great relationship with children, and it's primarily about the children. If they aren't ready to spend nights away from their mum/that home, then surely you suck it up for their sake. You could still do bath and story time, just not actually sleep with them

Equity in parenting isn't about each of you getting to do what the other does. It's not tit for tat. The relationship children have with each parent is separate, special and unique in its own ways.

I breastfeed, my husband can't do that, for example. That doesn't and didn't stop him bonding with the children. My husband spends more time with the children at their after school activities than I do, but I tend to listen to them read more. My oldest child does now sometime sleep with dad. The youngest doesn't. The youngest still has stories, etc with Daddy at bed time. My children all have a lovely relationship with my husband, but it's their relationship not an attempt at copying mine with them. My husband literally laughed at the idea he's somehow left out or pushed out.

I am not saying, at all, that your children should never, ever spend a night with you. I'd definitely think it's something that should be worked towards, of course. I'm just offering the perspective that you consider what they want and need and stop stamping your foot about what's fair for you right now. Maybe it is in their best interests to stop bedsharing straight away. but I'm offering a different perspective. It might help you be less antagonistic if you realise you can still have a great and equal relationship with your children, even if they don't spend nights with you (in the short term).

@atr79gb I've always made a big point in ensuring my children are not solely dependent on me. They are used to staying with my parents overnight and sometimes my siblings. I've made sure they go to bed and to sleep for other people, take bottles when I was breastfeeding, can be settled by others and are happy to talk to other people etc.
The reason I do this is so I know they will be absolutely fine if something should ever happen to me. My sister was unfortunately diagnosed with cancer when her son was 3. Thankfully she survived but it puts things into perspective.
I also believe a dad and his opinion is as important as a mums. My children adore their father and he them. He is an excellent father.