Worst decision a woman could make

[Notbeingrobbed]

As a working mother with two children to support, my divorce has made me see that getting married was the worst financial decision I ever made.

I have been the higher earner so will lose a big chunk of the money that I have made throughout my life. I also have the kids to support (happy to).

My ex will get a big payout having benefitted from my income as well as his own for years.

Why would any modern woman marry? Oh, because we are all influenced by society (and hormones) to think it’s a good thing.

People say I am arguing like a man. But the law was surely designed to protect a stay-at-home mother with children from a husband who leaves. Not to protect a layabout-at-home father?

@greenberet let’s none of us feel picked upon here, but your arguments are just so intriguing.

Let me try to understand. So, you didn’t work but you ran a limited company jointly with your ex. You apparently drew a salary but did no work as that was “not tax efficient”. That’s known as tax avoidance by paying a salary to a non-worker. Quite a lot of small businesses do this and it’s the main reason the only people who can afford private education are small business owners and foreign oligarchs. You were a sleeping partner!

As for your private education apparently being some route to escaping teenage suicidal thoughts - I don’t agree. Sadly, I know people who have faced these problems in both private and state education and it’s nothing to do with having to rough it with the “great unwashed” children of people who can’t avoid taxation!!

In fact sometimes the private system can be worse for depression and self-harm than the state.

Obviously you are not a person whose ego needs to be boosted by £s and Ps and that would not in any way be a reason for your choice of private education.

No zsazsajuju I’m not trying to shame you into anything.

look at your words money He gave me for housing - HE didn’t give it to me it was OURS - if you only judge someone on what they contribute financially then you are on a loser to start with.

Men and women are not equal it’s a physical impossibility yes there are some jobs both can do equally well and it is fair to pay them the same but there are some things that just don’t fit into equal! If this is what you are striving for then imo you are looking for the impossible - if this is what you need for a perfect world, the dream world then I’m sorry but you are still being hoodwinked by the state!

I’m not knocking you for doing what you do, what you chose to do but don’t knock others just because their way of life is not yours! Yes suicide - no it’s not new but you judge without knowing the full facts! Why should this make any difference. If it does then maybe a lesson to be learnt here.

I know you take care of your kids and financially provide for them what I’m saying is some are unable to provide as much financially as they would like for whatever reason this doesn’t make them any less of a person I just means they have been dealt a different hand to you. We are all trying to do our best some have it easier than others some have it harder but at the end of the day show some compassion and thank your lucky stars you are able to do what you do - not use it as a measuring stick to have a go at those doing it differently.

Notbeingrobbed with all due respect you talk out your arse!

@greenberet No. You are the person who is arguing that women cannot be equal to men. Go back to Stepford.

Very sexist views of greenb there.

Also for many women putting children first means having a good job and being a good parent. Sometimes you do worse by your children by having no career. There is no rule book which says the pinnacle of doing the best of your child is to be a housewife.

Greenberet women who work aren’t doing it to be “better than men”. We do it for ourselves because we don’t believe the societal bullshit that women are the ones who should be in the home. As others have said, your attitude that men and women can never be equal is incredibly sad - the fact that men generally may be physically stronger does not mean that women should default to being the ones who give up their careers.

You’re right that some people’s circumstances mean they can’t provide much financially. I have no issue with people whose circumstances are beyond their control and limit their earning power - e.g disability, poverty etc. What I do take issue with is people who make the choice not to be financially independent and expect their ex spouse or the state to keep them. Of course being a SAHP is being kept! How else would you describe it? Someone else was paying for your upkeep, that’s literally a fact

Hmm, I think this is all very sexist green beret so can’t let it lie. My whole justification for life is not “earning more than a man”. Where on earth did you get that from? I earn more than some men, less than others. When it comes to employment, I don’t believe women can’t do anything men can (obviously some extreme examples like underwear models, or playing hamlet).

I do understand that not everyone can be high earners. You do the best you can with what you have. But I have to wonder if your life would have been different if you had had to work. Maybe it would have benefited you. But who knows. My mother was a single parent- she was not a high earner but worked damn hard to support us. I have the greatest of respect for that. It doesn’t matter what you earn, I think it’s worthwhile to provide for yourself. I wonder where you got these ideas about men and women from? Were your parents like that?

I think it’s a real shame that green beret uses so much profanity when posting - I’m certain there’s is no need for it.
I’m in the same boat as the OP - a high earning working mother - good job really as my husband has disappeared with his bimbo from work and isn’t paying a penny. So if I was a SAHM who’d raised children and not worked I imagine I’d find it very difficult as well. I do think people are struggling to find sympathy for you greenberet though because clearly your children are now older, there’s an expectation that people will work to support themselves and lots of people with depression do have jobs - I have a close family member whose really struggled very badly over the years but has got the right medication and support to enable her to work and support herself. Personally I do think it’s a bit mean if the kids always went to private school that dad would suddenly not pay for that but it sounds like he has now got two two homes to support if he’s giving you money for housing.

I do take offence at you suggesting working mums are motivated by £ or other such insults. I’m degree educated, I work for a huge organisation in the uk and if I say so myself I’m very good at my job. I’ve got flexibility on hours and i like to think I’m teaching my kids that you should find your own lifestyle and not rely on handouts whether that’s from the state or a partner. I admire people who stay home and raise children if it’s what they want and can afford. It wasn’t for me as I needed to have more than being a mum to fulfill me. I also study in what little spare time I have and am starting my masters. None of this makes me any less of a parent as I work round their schooling and I have childcare to help out. This is perfectly normal these days.

I still help at PTA events, I manage to do parents evenings - if you’ve ever seen bad moms I probably am Amy Mitchell! But my kids love me and I love them - and when my daughter had to talk at school about the person who inspired her most I was humbled that she chose me because she thinks I’m some kind of superwoman.

I don’t perceive myself as putting a career above my children - I think that’s an insult - I’m showing them that women can be independent and shouldn’t really on a marriage or a partner to give them an income.

I don’t think my views are sexist! I can appreciate that some women want to work and do so but it seems that most on here cannot accept that a women would chose to be a mother first and that if they are they are kept or a cocklodger if male or some sub species to working women

Johnny some on here imply they are doing it to be better than men. Why should they by default give up their careers? nobody forces them to do this Infact from This thread it seems that not many do. If anything the state is doing more and more to facilitate women being able to work like men . So I don’t really get what you are saying. What is societal bullshit telling them to do? Because it’s more than just being in the home!

Who loses out in this scenario? - no one it seems better for kids better for couples so why are we not all happy as Larry? Why are kids now suffering more mental health isssues than ever before is this really just down to mobile phones or is it that we are being hoodwinked into continually comparing ourselves to others in as many ways as possible and as a result of an impossible conundrum of striving to be equal we feel more and more dissatisfied with ourselves?

Does PIP fit your definition of disability or is it just physical ? Or is this being kept by the state?

That’s literally a fact - I heard all this in court funny how facts can be interpreted in so many ways

@greenberet. Were your parents very traditional? What was your own money like?

Are you suggesting that children have mental health problems if both parents work? In your case, you were a sahp though.

“Facts can be interpreted in many ways” I’m sorry but now you’re sounding like Donald Trump and his ‘alternative facts’.

Why is is societal bullshit? Because men get only two weeks paternity leave. Because there is a mentality that it makes more sense for a woman to sacrifice her career than a man, and a mentality that being a ‘mother first’ is incompatible with working. Because outdated legalities like spousal maintenance are based on the assumption that women can’t support themselves. Because childcare is prohibitively expensive for low earners, and again it ends up being largely women taking a stay at home role. Because women are discriminated against at job interviews and asked if they have/want to have children. None of these things point to us having true equality, yet some people seem to just swallow that message without questioning it

Zsazs I think you made the point of saying you earn more than men in your profession I don’t think you said at the time less than others

My life would have been different if I had not had kids, if I did not have depression if I was born a man life is not just about work! your views are obviously influenced by your mum being a single parent who had no choice but to work

Flowers if I want to swear I can that’s my choice - if you have lived my life and can cope without swearing you are obviously a better person than me!

Maybe this thread is not just about working women maybe it’s another example of how little people really know about depression. I know someone who went through childbirth funny though her story is not the same as mine ditto someone with cancer - are you telling me that just because you know someone who works with depression that I should be too - are all our circumstances exactly the same?

Flowers you contradict yourself you say you admire people who stay home if that’s what they want and can afford - my comments were not directed at you they were directed at those who were calling me a kept woman!

What about showing your kids that men and women can work as a team that they can support and love each other in ways other than financially are you showing them this or are kids these days growing up thinking that “ normal” families are one parent families - how does this equate in their heads when the are embarking on relationships - that relationships are just for sex? That a relationship only means something if you are financially equal? That if one of you is a high earner and the other does something mundane that you are doomed from the start! That if for young girls these days you have the notion that you would like to stay home and look after your own kids ( which surely must be an inbuilt mechanism) that you are some sort of freak!

I’m out of this thread!

@greenberet - normal families are one parent families. We are entirely normal and quite common. Your family too is a one parent family no? Headed by you.

Are you from a religious background?

You will never have true equality and that is probably literally a fact - go through a divorce and end up in court and you will hear so called “facts” being interpreted one way and then another and this is the same fact and the same barrister - complete and utter bullshit!

No I’m not saying that both parents working cause mental health issues

Yes I know I’m a one parent family but it was not by my choice and no I am not from a religious background

One parent, two-parent, married, unmarried, same-sex parents, opposite sex parents... all normal families...

It wasn’t me that raised the issue of single parent families being normal - I’m not questioning the commenness of these I’m questioning the impact on the next generation and how they deal with this! When they are being driven by hormones to connect with another person yet possibly their whole life has been lived in a single parent family where the message has been whether consciously or unconsciously don’t rely on anyone else!

“Don’t rely on anyone else” is a pretty solid and sensible message though, not sure what your problem is with that. That doesn’t mean you can’t have and enjoy relationships but you can retain independence and self-reliance within relationships

As you've discovered Greenberet there is little you can do if your partner suddenly ups and leaves you. This doesn't mean that we've shown our children a bad example of a relationship - it means the person we chose suddenly decided to take a different route. Its happened to many of us. My children have a very good example of marriage within my family, but I am also raising my children to know that you don't remain with an abusive partner because of some outdated notion of marriage being paramount to all else. Particularly my daughters, I would like them to place a higher value on themselves.

I found your comment on swearing interesting - we all do it, I just don't find it appropriate to use that language towards people I don't know on the internet. The OP's situation is clearly very different to yours.

dont rely on anyone else - so where do the boundaries stop and start? If you have kids with someone aren’t you “relying” on them being an equal parent financially emotionally physically isn’t this an unspoken “trust” or do we need to have this spelled out in some contract you know just in case one or other decides to bugger off before the kid reaches 18 with exactly who will do what and when - impossible to enforce as any one battling CMs will know and this is just the financial aspect

How far do you retain independence and self reliance in a relationship? Does this mean there is no give and take? This is mine that’s yours and that’s it? Where’s the cross over? Obviously not financially as this then blurs the lines, are you in a relationship Johnny?

How soon does one or other become fed up with this - this doesn’t sound about love to me this sounds like it’s about money, responsibility, and do you set the ground rules out before you embark on a relationship or do you adjust and reconfigure as you go along dependent on circumstances?

Surely a prerequisite of a decent human being is that they are aware of their responsibility either to themselves or to others they chose to have kids with or enter into a relationship with whether this is marriage or not, or even professional relationships such as solicitors representing you in a divorce.

You lot seem to imply I have taken no responsibility for myself or for my kids because I have been lucky enough not to need to work from a financial point of view. You seem to forget that this was a joint decision made with someone I thought was a decent human being. Had I known he was not trustworthy from the start perhaps filled out a questionnaire to ask him whether he would shaft me and the kids once he decided he’d had enough - no conversation, no discussion just I’m doing this you know independence and self reliance I would have put my boundaries in different places!

As it is my times not up I’ve been “allowed” two years to sort my life out - but actually it’s not my life I’m sorting in this time its the kids - trying to give them as near as bloody possible the dream the perfect life that they lived prior to their DF having some sort of midlife crisis! And then deciding actually he preferred his independence and self reliance that doesn’t come with kids or with marriage and doing his best to get out of this responsibility,

So my times not up I have til the kids reach 18 so the law says after this time no more financial responsibility but I’m buggered if I’m going to shackle myself to societal norm because someone who is not living under societal norm thinks it is good for me!

You lot are so entrenched in this that you cannot see the wood for the trees one day you may be lucky enough to get a wake up call if not you will carry on living your version of independence and self reliance because you have been hoodwinked into thinking this is best for you and your kids!

Good luck!

No flower I’ve discovered there is much more that I can do when he ups and leaves. It’s not about marriage per se it’s about responsibility and commitment and boundaries and believe me I know about abuse - not the obvious no doubt it’s abuse but is this abuse when it comes with a smile, this is far more damaging than physical abuse when there is no question it is abuse. And I’m not minimising physical abuse before someone tries to imply that I am.

There are examples of abuse on this thread but I doubt those that are using it are even aware it’s abuse.

I’m also trying to raise my kids that you dont tolerate abuse in a realationship in the workplace in the courtroom from someone who is “superior” to you whether a parent, a boss or a judge not just my Dd but my Ds too!

I don’t want them fearful of being in relationships because most don’t work out, I don’t want them undervaluing themselves because somebody else has issues with their own self worth and I don’t want them ever to accept something because it is seen as societal norm or somebody else is telling them how they should or should not live their lives. If they want to question every bloody thing I want them to have the courage to do so even if it is a parent a boss or a judge! I want them to know and understand what responsibility is and this is not just financial this is just a part of it, to be able to freely admit they got it wrong when they have and that this does not make them less of a person, to be able to say sorry and above all not to turn nasty and try and bring someone to their knees to compensate for their own shortcomings!

And if they want to swear which they do that’s fine by me too after all it’s just an expression of feeling that some deem to think is inappropriate. But until we all learn to identify exactly what we are feeling and where this comes from and then be able to articulate it so it is understood swearing will have to do!

General in life if you women keep their careers going they protect their children best. I think that's all we are saying.

I always say spread our risk in all things so if one things goes wrong, husband disappears, wife goes you both have other financial sources. Keep a balanced life of work and family as you never know what is round the corner. Being a non working wife at home is not the best of choices for many.

@zsazsajuju and @greenberet
I think your dispute fundamentally boils down to the fact that you have different values. zsazsajuju obviously places a lot of importance on self reliance and financial independence whilst greenberet through choice or circumstance thinks that marriages and families are more about team work where sometimes the stronger will compensate for the weaker to deliver a benefit to the overall unit.

I don't think either view is definitively right or wrong, but I do think that they are pretty incompatible and that's why you will probably never agree and I think that's ok.

I actually side more in terms of ideology with greenberet and think that everyone retaining independence in all areas tends to disadvantage the family unit. I largely think this because I don't think a nanny or other childcare is the equivalent to have a parent at home and I think trying to maintain two stressful FT careers whilst juggling a young family can be detrimental to everyone's quality life and actually not lead to the overall family unit being better off. That is both my and my DH's opinion and informs our joint approach but I can certainly see the risks and disadvantages of such an approach and I wouldn't suggest anyone adopting a different opinion and approach was necessarily wrong. We all have different values and thoughts on what is important.

I would ideally like the law to recognise that some families purposefully adopt different approaches and to reward effort and contribution to the family whether that be in or outside the home. I think the problem with looking at things through a purely financial lens is that it's incredibly easy for someone to calculate how much money they have contributed to the family unit and seek to ring fence it, but a family and certainly children need so much more than simply money in order to thrive. They need a clean and safe home environment and involved parents that take an interest in what they're doing and facilitate aspects of their lives that support their development. The effort contributed in these areas in hard to quantify and even harder to monetise to then try and ring fence but it is still important and is a contribution to the marriage and family that should be acknowledged when splitting assets.

@xenia is correct as always.