Court - what is your experience of court deciding the child arrangement order?

[whatthefuckjusthappened]

My ex is taking me to court for more time with the children.

Since he left (nearly two years ago) he has had them alternate weekends (Fri straight from school - Sun tea time), and a Tuesday after school until about 7.30pm. He has always wanted to have them 50/50 and sent me texts/emails asking/begging/bullying/threatening to get me to agree.

I have always said no - for a million different and varied reasons, which I won't go into here! I feel that the children's stability is better served by having one primary home, especially to go to and from school. Shared care suits some children, my godson included, but it does not suit my children.

Anyway, I've been quite disheartened from what I've heard regarding the courts' attitude to child arrangement orders. Although they are meant to be very much based on the child, and refer to the Child Welfare Checklist, I have also been told that they like to start from a place of 50/50 between the parents, and then move from there more heavily towards one parent if the evidence compels it.

It seems that as long as the other parent isn't violent, a court will allow them to share custody of the children, with no reference to how unsettling this may be to some children or what reasons the other parent has against it.

Are courts really more guided by parity between the parents rather than what is best for the child?

To be clear, I'm not inviting criticism of my not wanting the status quo to change. I would just like to know what are your experiences of how a court deals with child arrangement issues?

Thanks!

A man I know recently got 50/50 for his son, although it had been not far off prior to that.

I don’t have personal experience, but wondered what your reasons are for saying that it shouldn’t be 50/50. You will need to provide a really strong case, with evidence to support it, to justify why it would not be in your kids’ best interest to have a 50/50 split.

I’m on your side, btw. But I’m just suggesting what you are likely to experience in court.

I couldn’t imagine as a child to live 50% in one home with one set of rules/boundaries and then to quickly switch to the other home for the other 50%. I don’t think it’s right children get split when their parents do!

I think it’s a real cowardice by the courts and the legal system that the default is now 50/50. What child really eats

Wants (not eats) to shuttle between houses all the time.

Also, how on earth does it work when there is a history of abuse. My ex was (and is) every emotionally abusive and is starting to mutter about shared care. But how would it work? He either fails to pass on essential information or spouts abusive and irrational rants. To do 50/50 care there would surely have to be a really good relationship between the parents, especially during the teenage years. I just don’t get, realistically, how it could work unless the parents were on incredibly good terms. And it only takes one parent to be awful for that to be impossible.

No answers op, but I really feel for you, and I feel the courts are focussed on 50/50 being “fair” for the parents when in fact they were always meant to be about putting the children first.

Children get used to shared residence very quickly providing they have organised parents.

But jonbb if one of the parents is the kind who (say) deliberately hides important letters, withholds maintenance when they feel like it, never replies to messages, etc etc then however good the other parent is, it’s just going to be grim and also keep the other parent locked into an abusive dynamic (all of which harms the children). But the courts don’t seem willing to face up to that.
And how many adults would like to constantly move between houses? Really?

In that case they can use the evidence to make an application to have the order varied..

Communication is one of the reasons I have. My ex doesn't even get out of the car when he picks up/drops off the children. He sits there with the engine running! If he has the children more often then we will need to co-parent more effectively than we are now, and I don't think we're capable of that.

Actually I can't see why you need to have a verbal discussion. It should ALL be agreed beforehand as part of the separation including communication. Most families where there has been problems due to one parent being difficult, communicate via email when anything needs attention regarding the children, and ONLY email, unless a dire emergency. That way there is a paper trail of evidence. Most people arent stupid enough to put threats and their bloody mindedness in writing, but on the few occasions that happens it's very useful evidence for seeking a variation. Withholding maintenance is nothing to do with a residence order and is separate to that. You will not thank me for saying this, but providing the cms sort out the maintenance issue, repositioning your response to an ex who still tries to control is a good way of dealing with it. I don't mean pretending to them I mean genuinely being in a place where they are irrelevant as far as your own emotional wellbeing is concerned. The hiding letters can be dealt with by having a permanent mail redirection on at the f m h. CMS should deal with the maintenance issue and communication by email in a factual and professional manner usually helps put the emotional distance there. Why would your ex need to get out of the car when dropping and picking up children? If you have something to say email.

I just meant it's indicative of our poor relationship, and that isn't good for trying to co-parent effectively and cohesively.

Yes, sorry I was commenting more on nevertwerk's post.

As an adult I would be very unsettled living in two homes split 50% of the time. Children need to be nurtured, have security and to have structured routine. Not sure how going between 2 houses each week can achieve that.

I was in court for a year, finished last year.

My exH was violent and abusive and took me to court asking for a shared care arrangement - but in terms of time was asking for Friday-Monday every other weekend, wednesdays overnight, half of school holidays.
My dS was 3 at the time.

It was stressful, awful.
We had to have a fact finding hearing about the abuse, where the court found in my favour.
CAFCASS weren’t bothered at all about the history of violence. EXH had done a six week anger management course over the phone so he was now cured of his drive to strangle his partners

The court did recognise that I was receiving sometimes 15 messages per day calling me every name under the sun - and granted me a non molestation order.

What CAFCASS did say, was that it would be better for DS’s continuity to go to his dads every other weekend Friday-Sunday at 5pm, and wednesdays after school until 6pm, and that more than this would be unsettling.

I also have a live with order, so he has to ask permission to take him out of the U.K. and has to bring him back as per order as a nice trick of the pre order days were him just not returning him.

Whilst I’m not happy with the amount of time he has with him (still abusive), the order has given us boundaries, which was helpful.

I can’t tell you what his chances of 50/50 are, I do know that the courts favour the status quo where reasonable.
Speak to a solicitor for advice.

Many parents arguing against 50:50 will be the same people making most use of pre and after school clubs etc. And staying with grandparents for extended periods.

As to adults feeling unsettled living in two homes, I don’t think most people feel sorry for those who go to their ‘country house’ most weekends and holidays!

Children are more than capable of adjusting to and actively enjoying two homes if both are loving and organised. After all very few parents are arguing against school on the same basis.

Equally even married couples generally parent slightly differently. Just because it is in a different physical space does not change that.

This objection to 50:50 seems much more about ownership and control in many cases, disguised (consciously or subconsciously) as the children’s best interests.

If someone asks for 50:50 and, rather than having a rational discussion and agreeing to something (either 50:50 or at least a reasonable compromise) you end up with the court ordering it, you will hardly be great co parents. I think King Solomon knew a little about the child’s best interests.

I’m not sure what pre and after school clubs and stays with grandparents has to do with living your life shared between two families.

Physical space if a huge factor in a child’s life and the fact they expected to adjust just isn’t right.

Clearly I’m against 50/50 shared care as I didn’t bring my children into this world so I could only be around for them 50% of the time and why should they miss out on that when it’s no fault of their own their father decided he didn’t want to commit to 100% parenting. If I grew up only seeing my mother 50% of the time I’m sure I’d have issues in adulthood.

My kids don’t use any after school/ breakfast clubs. I work school hours and do the rest of my hours when they are in bed.

DP and his ex (and I) manage to co-parent my step children effectively. So I know it can work. But not when one parent is an abusive bully.

@larrygrylls you don’t seem to want to acknowledge the role an abusive ex partner may play in making this so impossible. I would love to have the kind of relationship where we could have a “rational discussion” but his behaviour has repeatedly made that impossible

Also, withholding maintenance is a sign he would be impossible to co- parent with. That money all goes on the children, yet he doesn’t care about the impact. If he is cavalier about court ordered payments, how would we ever agree on any of the costs we would have to share as 50/50 parents? (School trips, school shoes, hobbies etc). I know what would happen. He’d refuse to pay any of it. How is that not relevant?

@jonb I should have been clearer. The letters are ones sent home by school in DS book bag. Ex likes to remove them and not tell me about them. I have asked school to let me have copies etc but this doesn’t always work. When I get a letter i leave it in book bag for ex to see and take a photo and send it to him. It’s not hard to co- parent if you are both sensible. It is impossible if just one person is more keen on making life difficult for their ex than putting energy into co-parenting effectively.

If he is abusive it is different.

And withholding maintenance is wrong.

Sorry if you had already included those details. If he is doing all that and you have tried to discuss things with him already, I think it is highly unlikely that he will get 50:50.

What do the children want?

The children seem happy with the status quo. (He has one night in the week and every other weekend plus half the hols... but he doesn’t actually want them half the hols, and quite often can’t have them on “his” weekend.........)

I think you’ll find in the vast majority of contested cases there’s an abusive partner. I get to see how smoothly co- parenting can go with my dP and his ex. She comes in a chats at pick up, my daughter likes to run and hug her, she even comes to my daughters shows. We might not see eye to eye on the minutiae of parenting but we are able to respect each other and cooperate on the big things. It only takes one abusive parent for this to be impossible.

This is happening to me right now, husband announced he's leaving as he doesn't feel the same way and he wants 50 50 residency. My gut feeling for a child of two this is too much, is a lot of disruption up and down and lack of consistency. It also means he will need to spend more time in child care since we both work full time, rather than an arrangement where we would split the week say into a couple of overnight stays, afternoon or dinner time visits and split school drops. I can't get my head around how it would work and I also feel sad that I wouldn't see him half the time. At this age he needs mummy.

Op, just concluded a contested CAO.

I made the application after reaching a stale mate. Upon separation, interim arrangements were agreed of EOW and one night mid week. At this point he had the opportunity to prove to the court that he could commit to those arrangements and had he done so the outcome would undoubtedly have been different. Instead things continued much like they had done before the split, his working hours remained unchanged, and now instead of me collecting the children, various family members collected the children from school/ nursery. They were then driven 30 miles away for supper, only to be collected by Ex and driven 30 miles back for bed on a school night!

My primary concerns were with the dc stability, Ex wanted shared care and for dc to spend alternate nights with each parent, effectively spending each night in a different bed. By the time we reached court, he was demanding full residency, on the basis that I am a danger to dc. There was an investigation and the Caffcas report found in my favour recommending that the dc remain with me.

I disagreed with shared care due to him being unable to commit to working around the childrens needs. He had no realistic proposals on how he saw arrangements working and I grew tired of the threats. There had been practical issues too, his refusal to provide basic items for when the children were in his care. Also his refusal to provide a spare uniform. Kit was ‘misplaced’ at his or family members house and the onus was on me to replace it. It was a complete logistical nightmare especially as I cannot reasonably rely on a 6 yr old to ensure she has everything that she needs with her.

In the end his refusal to be reasonable was a massive gamble. Even after strategically loosing his job before the final hearing, the judge found it in dc interests that they remain in my care and continue to see him as much as his working hours will allow. The irony is that had we not gone to court, I was willing to be far more flexible with him, if only he worked with me but now we are both bound by an order. Courts do favour 50/50 but my experience has been that they also require a commitment from both parents to work together to that end.

I am all for young children remaining with the primary carer Male or Female, studies have shown how beneficial this is. For those who are pro shared care and are Male, I wonder how many of you shared an equal role with regards to your dc? Because if you can demonstrate that you have had that input from day one, I cannot see how a court would order otherwise. I don’t wish to be inflammatory, as in my case Ex was not hands on. His working hours demonstrated this and his family doing the majority of the interim care. And when he tried to over egg his input in the trial, his argument fell appart.

I know every case is very different but honestly I can’t see how shared care 50/50 could benefit young children. Little ones need their Mummy, full stop!

thousand this is really helpful. It’s good the court took into consideration his lack of cooperation on practical matters.

I am sorry you have had to go through all that though. Really sorry.

In my experience, the decent dads generally don’t push for strict 50/50 as they can see how disruptive it would be for their children.