ExH won't stop hitting children as 'punishment'

[Rosyleigh]

He seems to think its an acceptable form of punishment. One which I absolutely am against and have told him personally via email and through a solicitors letter.

I am the residential parent and I have never hit the children, he sees them every other weekend and consistently hits them (around the head, and also apparently this weekend kicked, with shoes on!) I have pulled him up on this before and even had a solicitors letter go to him regarding the matter (which back and forth, cost me £1000!!). But he just slips back into this behaviour.

How do I stop this?? This weekend he apparently showed the children an article online to tell them that it was 'legal' for him to hit them as 'a reasonable form of punishment' and then went on to hit and kick (mainly DS - 9) 3 times over the course of 2 days.

Do I stop contact, point blank?

He was EA towards me in the marriage and I have NC, only curt emails if absolutely necessary.

I don't know the best course of action, please can someone advise what to do for the best?

Please just stop contact. Report him to the police as well.

You don't need to go to court because there is no order to change. Yet.

Well done for making all those calls. I agree about taking SS advice about the police.

If he is asked/told to go on a parenting course and refuses, that would be another argument for him not to have unsupervised access to the children.

When is he expecting to see them next? Just wondering how much time you have to let him know that you won't be allowing it.

Report. This will set off a process .
You and dc will talk to them
So will exh
He will deny if course but it does mean he can be told clearly don't hit around head dont do porn around them. Then it's all recorded.

This will take time but in meantime arrange contact only with another adult you trust present.

Ah well I was wrong about CSs but I think their intervention will be limited. I don't think you got accurate advice from NSPCC. As someone else has pointed out you don't need to go to court because there is no court order. IF it does become necessary you can't just ask for supervised contact, you start from the premise that you want to stop contact and take it from there. I think a judge is unlikely to grant an Order stopping contact to be honest or ordering the dad to go on a parenting course. I hope you can resolve this without going to the family court because that's a tedious process and the kids know they are being fought over which isn't good for them.

The fact that the children want to continue contact puts you in a difficult position. Maybe a SW will visit your ex and warn him off but I have my doubts. What is his reaction if you talk to him about hitting the kids.

I know people are urging you to contact the police but I don't think this is something with which they would get involved.

I don't think 8 kids playing near the house is a problem especially as your youngest is due to start sec school this year, when he will be travelling to and fro on his own.

Emma he was due to pick them up on Friday and have them until Sunday Morning. I haven't told him yet that I'm ceasing contact.

How do I arrange contact to go ahead with someone I trust, TBH I don't know anyone who I could ask to do this, all his family are hundreds of miles away, as are mine. Where would contact with a trusted person take place? He wouldn't agree to this anyway.

I'm still waiting for SS to come back to me to say if they will investigate further.
I haven't told the police and will leave that for now, until I'm told to by SS.

The major problem is the children still want to see him unsupervised, but as I've been told by child protection people, this is all part of the abuse to make them feel that its normal to behave in that way towards them.

I don't think 8 kids playing near the house is a problem especially as your youngest is due to start sec school this year, when he will be travelling to and fro on his own. It was 3 kids not 8 (?), the eldest is DD who is 11 this year, the other two are 9 and EH GF's daughter 8. But this isn't too much of an issue, I don't think. Its the hitting around the head I want to stop.

I don't think arranging your own unofficial "supervisor" for his contact with the children would be a good idea, even if you did have someone suitable. As you say, he wouldn't agree to it anyway. It all needs to be official and above board, at a Child Contact Centre.

I'm glad the child protection have explained that your children have been conditioned by him to want unsupervised contact, they are extremely vulnerable to his manipulation and not aware of how dangerous he is.

National Association of Child Contact Centres

I'd inform ss rather than a solicitor, they are free and will stop his contact and enable supervised.
He is a bully, please don't let your children go again.

what the children want and what they need are two different things. As their parent you are absolutely doing the right thing stopping contact, even if they find it hard. They need to know this.

Sit them down and explain that your job is to keep them safe and that as their dad doesn't want to stop hitting them, then you have only one choice and that is to stop sending them until he learns not to hit them.

Tell them they did the right thing telling you and that they are helping their dad by teaching him it is wrong to hit children. That way they may not feel guilty about telling you. The last thing you want is for them not to tell you things in the future to protect him/their relationship with him.

Lay it on thick that you are doing this for them and that you are proud they know right from wrong.

Sorry I got it wrong about the number of kids - god knows where I got 8 from! I think you're getting some inaccurate information on here. Newlife Social Services have no powers to stop the children's contact with their father, only a court has that power.

As others have said you can't arrange some kind of supervision of contact - and I think you realise that now. And social services will not be able to "enable supervised contact" - again only a Judge can do that, the same as the contact centres, this is an arrangement that can only be by order of the Court.

I think the best way forward is for you and your ex to discuss this issue of him hitting the children, possibly with a 3rd person present to referee (as it were) and see if you can reach an agreement.

What a ridiculous idea. You want the OP to challenge her violent, abusive ex, "possibly with a third person as a referee"?! What rubbish. He is not a reasonable person, he is hardly going to say "of course I was wrong, so sorry, I won't do it again". If there is any chance of him taking anything on board it need to come from an authority figure such as social services and/or a court.

Also I think you're wrong about this:
"And social services will not be able to "enable supervised contact" - again only a Judge can do that, the same as the contact centres, this is an arrangement that can only be by order of the Court."

According to the NACCC website it is possible for social services to refer to a Child Contact Centre:
"You will have to apply to go to a contact centre. You can apply yourself or you may be helped to apply by your mediation service, solicitor, Cafcass officer or social worker."
That is from their home page, it's not hard to find!

However this just highlights why the OP needs proper legal advice (from the children's law centre and/or Rights of Women) and not just misguided advice from randomers on here.

AnotherEmma

I totally agree, unless there are professionals on here who really know.
My suggestion of ss was to inform them as report, so the OP has something official, not that I know what they can and can't do. They did this for a woman I know, but yes, they went to court, too.
Every situation is different and this is why the OP needs lots of suggestions as to who to inform and what to do.

Any parent like the OP would exhaust every avenue, you can't allow him to abuse the children.

Thanks everyone.
SS have spoken to ExH, told him my concerns, and he denied kicking but admitted to hitting. He also admitted to showing them the webpage that said he was in his rights to 'smack' them. He was told that they don't condone punishments of this nature and that he should find other methods of punishments or he would keep getting referred to them. He apparently sounded like he agreed.

SS then called me and relayed the above to me and said that they won't get involved, that it is not a child protection issue and that I should look to try to firm up the contact order, either by mediation or court order.

They didn't think that I should stop contact.

I also spoke to a solicitor for 30 mins today who specialises in domestic abuse on a free call via Family Law Panel. She did not think this amounted to abuse, but more that he needed guidance on coping with the children ('does he have partner to help?' she asked.....he has them for 2 days out of 14! ffs!

So now I am well and truly confused, would a 'telling off' from SS be enough to ensure that he stops the hitting? Do I take the risk to find out?

Get a second and third opinion from NSPCC (call them back to see what they say about the latest developments) and Rights of Women.

And personally I would not let my children go back to see him, especially not when he is still refusing to admit that he has kicked them repeatedly (as well as hitting).

I would give him the option of self-referral to a child contact centre or no contact at all. And if he's not happy with that he can take you court.

Tbh I'm staggered that social services have decided that repeated and long term hitting of children (this isn't the first time by a long shot) isn't a child protection issue! I mean WTAF?!

I would also worry about him punishing the children for telling you about the abuse and "getting him in trouble".

Call the police. Your children are being criminally assaulted.

I would have the same worry as AnotherEmma.

Why would kids make up stories about their father, who they presumably love, for all his faults, kicking them?

This is just him continuing his emotional abuse of you, through your kids. He knows exactly what he's doing.

Well what would I know AnotherEmma and Newlife - I've only had 30 years experience in Children's Services specialising in safeguarding and working in the family courts.

OK the issue of contact centres. Yes you can self refer but parents are very unlikely to do this. If a child is removed from the parents and the case goes to court and the Judge makes a Care Order that gives Parental Responsibility (PR) to the LA although the parents retain some PR. In most cases, the LA will arrange contact with the parents (together or separately) at a Children's Centre or other social services provision. The contact is always supervised by a contact supervisor who takes notes of the nature of the contact.

If the parents are separated and the children have their home with one parent (as in this case) and the other parent has contact and the matter is in the Family Court there will be a CAFCASS social worker involved. If h/she thinks there is concern about contact she can ask the judge to make an Order than contact is via a contact centre.

SO social workers cannot simply decide that contact should be at a contact centre as some of you are convinced is the case. I think people in general always believe that social workers have more power than they actually do - they don't really have any unless the Court makes an Order granting them PR. So no they can't decide that contact should cease either.

Have you got it now Newlife - no I'm sure the page isn't hard to find but interpreting child care law is a complex business. And I couldn't agree more that the OP needs "proper legal advice" and not just misguided advice from randomers on here - randomers? not a proper word!

OP I think this issue has been ramped up by random people on here who don't understand child protection issues, and why would they, but why then make definitive statements about what can be done, which I think is more confusing.

The thing is all social work activity is underpinned by the law and within that law there is a "threshold criteria" for child protection. Some cases are obviously child protection and swift action is taken, some are borderline and others are not child protection and yours falls into the latter category. People are amazed but social workers don't have infinite time and so priorities have to be decided upon and the worst cases are going to take priority. That's not to say that hitting a child round the head is the act of a caring parent but it's not the same as a 6 week baby with skull fractures whilst in the care of heroin addicted parents, if you see what I mean.

SO I'm not surprised SWs are not deeming this to be child protection nor the solicitor you consulted. But the SW did speak to your ex so that may be enough to stop him. You are now being urged to get a second opinion from NSPCC (again the poster has no knowledge of how NSPCC work) they are a voluntary organisation and have no statutory responsibilities or duties, so if a referral is made to them they simply pass it on to social services. And rights of women - what in god's name can they do!! And 3littlefrogs wants you to call the police as the children are being criminally assaulted! In cases of child protection that are serious the LA social workers and the child protection police officers meet together to decide on a strategy to protect the child.

I just wish people wouldn't post the first thing that comes into their head and ramp things up when they don't have any knowledge of the issues.

I think OP you should let contact go ahead. Is there any chance you could have a talk with him before the contact this weekend.

I'm not saying NSPCC or Rights of Women can do anything but they can advise the OP.

But sure, let's argue about using the word "randomer", that's clearly the biggest issue here

I think what nananina is saying Emma, is that whilst his behaviour is indicative of pretty shit parenting, all of it can be explained by carelessness and differences of opinion over how to discipline. Nothing he has done has gone beyond the threshold of what would be considered more damaging to the kids than the loss of a relationship with their father. As far as social services and the court system are concerned shit parenting is better than nothing.

Yes I understand that titchy. But there is no court order or legal agreement in place that means the OP has to allow him unsupervised contact. She could refuse which would obviously have implications but it is an option. I imagine if she did that and it went to court, it would be stressful and expensive and the courts would allow him some kind of contact, but it is an option. It's up to the OP to decide how much of a fight she wants to have for the sake of her children not being hit or kicked.

So would all the relevant people, including the courts, agree that hitting children round the head and kicking them is an ok form of parental discipline?

I honestly thought that would be considered illegal in the UK.

I have learned something anyway.

Really sorry you and your children are going through this OP. It sounds horrendous.