Anyone agreed spousal maintenance without solicitors/court?

[TickledOnion]

I want to approach exH about spousal maintenance. He is currently paying my mortgage and some bills and gives me some money each month but none of this is official.

I think he would be amenable to working out spousal maintenance without involving solicitors or court, but I'm not sure where to start. I assume we would have to get a legal document drawn up at the end of the process but how do we go about doing the majority of the work ourselves?

Also, I don't know how long is reasonable to expect him to pay. For life, till 65, till the DDs are 18? I work part-time due to childcare but would earn a lot less than him even if I was full-time.

Does anyone have any experience of this? Or should I get a solicitor/mediator involved?

why do you think you are entitled to spousal maintenence? I understood it to be very rare nowadays

Ex earns about 4 times more than me. I work part time so I can do school/nursery run for 2 and 4 yo DDs. He'd still earn 3 times more than me if I worked full time.
I had a free 1 hour with a solicitor who led me to believe I had was entitled to SM.

It's not as rare as some armchair experts would have you think on MN. If there is a big disparity in income and young children involved (including any benefits etc you might receive) then it will be considered by a court.

I was in court last month and was told by the judge that joint lives maintenance is rarely being awarded these days but that in my case (two primary aged kids and relatively high earning ex) I could expect to be awarded it for a fixed term eg 3-5 years.

Just because there is a disparity in incomes does not make it a given that you are automatically entitled to spousal maintenance. It's about 'needs' and not 'wants'. So, first off you have to establish if you genuinely need support from your ex and then be able to demonstrate this adequately to the court. The person paying must then be able to pay this and be able to demonstrate this also.

So, spousal maintenance is usually only awarded if one person is only able to earn a fixed, low income because of child care issues, age say or due to disabilities etc none at all, and because of this is unable to adequately live on their income, and the other person has enough income to be bridge this gap without detriment to them.

Often the court will put a fixed time on spousal maintenance to enable someone to retrain if they have been out of work say for a while due to looking after children. It is becoming increasingly rare for spousal maintenance to be awarded for lengthy periods or life. The expectation is that both parties will move towards making themselves truly independent. A clean break is favoured in any case over spousal.

To ascertain your needs and your ex's ability to pay in the first place you both need to fill in Form E which is readily downloadable from the internet. If you are amicable you can both fill this in as a starter without the need of a solicitor and have an open discussion. Failing this, mediation is probably the way to go.

Just to add, if you both agree to fill in Form E and find that there is a need for spousal, which is agreed by your ex etc etc, then you are best to get a solicitor to draft something up and make it official with the courts. With nothing in writing, even if you agree a sum, your ex can at any point stop paying without any repercussions.

I have agreed finances with my ex without involving a solicitor as we are doing a cheapskate Wikivorce.

We basically sat down and worked out what the outgoings are for each of us in our respective homes, what our incomes are likely to be (including tax credits for me and the potential for me to earn more as the children grow up) and then worked out how much he should give me to keep things fair and even.

As it turns out, on top of the amount the CSA (or whatever they are now) recommend he pays, he doesn't really need to give me much extra. Since he moved out I have registered as a childminder (something he would never have agreed to while living here) and now earn ok money, topped up with tax credits, child benefit and his contribution for the children, so actually spousal maintenance is a bit unnecessary.

I did however push for the equity in the house as his higher earning potential and pensions mean that his future is more secure than mine, as having been a low earning SAHM throughout our marriage I will only get a minimal state pension.

Is there a way you can sort it out so that he isn't paying you anything long term, but you get more of the equity to balance it out?

Thanks for all the replies. I'll get on with Form E.

It is not just about 'needs', it is also about 'lifestyle' I'm afraid. So although SM is harder to get than it used to be, it is still available if the circumstances call for it.

What judges tend to do now is look at in two ways:

1. having a mother on benefits and a father living the life of riley (or vice versa) is absolutely not fair on the child, whose needs are paramount.

2. the mother is expected (or vice versa) to maximise her earning capacity. After that, the husband's needs are considered, then any surplus is clearly something to discuss.

So it comes down to what he can afford in the eyes of the judge. Of course that does not mean 50/50, but it does mean that if there is an excess, some of it can be spent on the child - by way of periodical payments to the mother.

Thirdly, when you have had a long marriage (or marriage plus relationship) then you have a 'way of life'. It is considered that a period of time to adjust to a much more budget-driven way of life is essential. And therefore, you may be awarded spousal maintanence.

The rules for the rich are the same for the poor - the difference is the rich can afford the best of barrister brains.

Heather Mills was awarded 16m in settlement and SM. Paul McCartney has assets worth 440-ish million for a short marriage.

So no, don't believe that anything you hear. Ask a judge to rule on it.

Life-time maintenance is unusual, but step-down SM is common even in marriages with grown up children.

It comes down to what he can afford, if anything. It is not a 'right' for the non-earning spouse but a means to help them 'move on'.

A few different questions here

1/ Yes you can work out arrangements between yourselves, though it is an idea to get an expert to check things over to be sure you have thought of everything. I think that the judge who has to sign your decree should check that things are fair, but I wouldn't rely on that.

2/ As I understand it SM is not uncommon, though it is often time-limited.

In the case of my divorce my exW tried to claim that she couldn't possibly work more than 16 hours a week, with both boys at Uni and/or living with me I might add. Part of the reason for this was how could she possibly fit in the gym etc if she worked full time! All the experts involved pointed out that there was no medical reason for this and therefore her demands were unreasonable. It was agreed that I would pay her some SM for 2 years as that was considered a reasonable time for her to ramp up her hours at her current employers.

As I recall the "normal" thing is for child maintenance to run until the kids are 18 or finish fulltime education and there is an accepted maximum of a percentage of income, based on the number of kids. However, as PP have said, there are a variety of factors to take into account. I know of people paying SM that ends at the same time as CM, and others that will pay it longer.

I haven't checked this thread for a while and didn't realise there were more replies. Thanks WellWhoKnew and HampshireBoy. Your replies do match what the solicitor told me.
I have approached ExH about this and we are now filling in [[https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/tools/divorce-and-separation-calculator this form]] together. I'll have to see how it goes, but I am hopeful that we can agree to something.

You can agree it through mediation, if you are both amenable. its not as rare as MN would have you believe.

I have recently been through this exercise with ex-wife. Sadly she based her expectations on; greed, anger, wants and wishes as opposed to reasonable needs and her advisors did not seem to intervene. Her proposal was 4,500 per month for life and four houses (including my parents house and another that was put in trust for the two children). Final ruling was 400 per month Spousal for 4 years as by then youngest child would be 14 and ex-wife could work full time. Ex-wife was to keep house I bought for her in her home country and was given a capital sum of 100K to buy a house in UK. However, by time her advisors had taken their fees there was about 85K left and now she is unable to buy a house in UK and is forced to rent which will deplete her capital rapidly. The moral of the situation is that greed will not pay and only the legal profession will gain if one of the partners makes it a contest.

I have been down this route recently. Due to difference in earnings (I earn about 3 times ex-wife) and their was child aged 10, final settlement was 400 per month till child reaches 14 as by then ex-wife can work full time and hence need less support from myself.

Joint Lives Spousal Maintenance is very rare. My advisors remarked that in today's World there are more hens that have front teeth than those who are awarded Joint Lives Maintenance. Spousal Maintenance is based on needs (as opposed to wants and wishes) and takes into account the paying partners income and their own needs. At end of day, contrary to what many ex-wives believe, blood can't be extracted from a stone

To Tickled Onion. Good luck with the negotiations. Sadly my ex-wife was not prepared to take your approach and courts were involved for over a year before final settlement was made. Ex-wife ended up with less than I offered at outset as legal costs swallowed about 25% of available wealth!

My logic was simple. The more that is spent on legal the less there will be left at end for anybody else. Sadly ex-wife believed what she was told by advisors (Joint Lives Maintenance and all assets for herself) and went all the way to final hearing.

My ex-wife got the bulk of the Matrimonial assets on basis that she could never earn what I can. However, that was reflected in the maintenance period which was capped at 4 years.

Hi all

Hope you all don't mind me jumping on the thread...

In the subject of SM... I've been wondering if I'd be entitled to any. My husband and I jointly with equal shares own a limited company where he is the contractor going out to work and in the company secretary and do all the admin and booking whilst staying at home looking after our 2 boys (7 & 10).

When we get divorced he will be able to continue this business without me whereas I would need to start from scratch and find a job. Effectively my salary goes from £xx,xxx to zero and his effectively doubles because he now gets my bit. Hope that makes sense.

In this instance I was wondering if I could claim some SM for a period of time until I could establish myself and get a job??

He has threatened to close the business down and become unemployed if I do this?!?

Going to see solicitors next week but just wondering if anyone has any words of wisdom here xx

If you own half of the Company should your partner not buy your share from you? If Company is Jointly owned then does it not need both owners to agree whether or not Company should be shut down?

You don't mention how long you have been married or if there are Children involved? Both those factors are pivotal when deciding on maintenance. For example a short childless marriage would likely result in zero Spousal Maintenance. A long marriage in which wife gave up a career of her own to support he husband would be more likely to receive a Spousal Maintenance award.

If there is a large difference in earnings between the two partners Spousal Maintenance may be considered for a period of time to enable the financially weaker partner to progress towards independence.

In all cases Spousal Maintenance is based on needs and ensuring fairness to both. Courts preference is for Spousal Maintenance to come to an end as soon as possible and a degree of hardship, but not undue, is acceptable during the transition to independence.

Judge Mostyn's ruling on Spousal Maintenance is probably the best guideline.

Hope you can work it out without Solicitors and courts as once they are involved the costs will sky rocket and there will be less at end to share between the partners.

Thanks so much for your reply...

We have been married 15 years (been together for 25 years) and have 2 children under 10 years of age. I did give up my career (research scientist) to look after the children.

I'm hoping we can sort something out. I'm not looking for vengeance or take him to the cleaners I just want my freedom back and what would be reasonable in our situation.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply x

Forgot to add... he wouldn't be able to shutdown the company as such but he could refuse to work meaning that no money would be coming into the company

If the Limited Company has being trading successfully for some years the courts would want to know why your husband suddenly decided to stop working. Bit of a coincidence to stop working during divorce proceedings. Particularly when their are 2 young children involved.

My wife got nasty during the divorce and made ridiculous demands that judge at final hearing rejected. Amount spent on legal costs was almost 30% of available cash. I would have rather given the money to the ex wife than to legal profession as total cost to myself is same no matter who received the money.

If you do become unemployed make sure you claim all your entitlements such as child benefit, child tax credits. I feel you were to work part time to fit in with school hours you may qualify for working tax credits. My ex wife receives £90 per month child benefit for our son, £277 child tax credit and £307 working tax credit plus £650 per month child maintenance and £400 per month spousal maintenance for 4 years. Logic was that in 4 years time our son will be 14 and ex wife can work full time and hence be less dependent on support from myself.

Amazed that some father don't realise that if ex wife is struggling then children will also be struggling too. However, in some cases wives invite trouble by making silly demands and preventing fathers from seeing their children. I imagine some fathers might think

"If I can't see my children why should I pay anything?"

Courts, however, will not accept that approach.

Thank you world traveler, your responses have been really useful.... am seeing solicitors this week xx