Council saying I should remove my mum privately to move her closer to me

[flutisy]

Hello, sorry, looking for more help!
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/dementia/5471968-what-are-the-chances-of-getting-my-mum-moved-near-me?reply=149726957
I've been trying to get my mother moved near me from London. The council won't move her.
They are saying I will have to move her privately if I want her moved, and then wait for a CHC where I live. Does anyone have any idea what this would actually involve? She needs nursing care. Would I have to get her private ambulance? Where would it take her? She has no money and I am just not in a position to pay for care home fees for any amount of time. I have two small children and my house is not in anyway set up for someone needing nursing care. I could probably just about scrape together the private ambulance costs. But it just feels like her current council would be quite delighted by me taking her off their hands and landing her on my council.

She's doubly incontinent, immobile and has also been sectioned at least twice. I don't think it would be sensible to have her in my house with small children - but I can't afford nursing home fees.

Google AgeUK and telephone them. Make sure you have as much information to hand to give them. They will give you good advice and support AND they know the rules and what your mother's rights are.

I am so sorry you are in this position. Unfortunately local councils and social services are not known for honesty and transparency.
It is not your responsibility to fund anything.
Please speak to Age UK. They will help.

I won't have to fund anything if she stays in London, but we are so desperate to move her down here. I totally get that they don't have to move her, but we're over 100 miles away and a nine hour round trip and I don't have the ability to do that very often (I have small children). I will try Age UK - thanks so much.

Age UK helpline wait time is estimated at 30-60 minutes right now...

@Hatgirl - you're not going to put up with this, surely?!

it might be worth getting touch with Social Services in your area. They should allocate a social worker in the first instance and this may help facilitate things. Good luck. You might be able to get a list of available care homes from SS. So can have a look around and choose, see which is closest to you etc.

OK, I did this and moved my dad to a care home near me in a different local authority to his own. Some points:

1. you'll have to find the home. I did my research, chose one and asked them to tell me when a place became available.

2. I got my dad's LA to agree to fund it, on the basis they had just agreed that he now needed residential care - he'd been on four carer visits daily but wasn't doing well and had two hospital admissions for falls- so it was just a matter of that being in a location closer to me. He didn't have savings but got it agreed as charge back from the house value which was to be sold after his death.

3. You'll probably also have to do the transporting. I drove my dad and a car load of his stuff there from hospital several hours away. That was an extremely stressful day, but it got it done.

In short - the key bit is them conceding she needs residential care and agreeing to fund it. If you can get to that, then you'll need to do the research, organising and logistics to make it happen, but that is possible.

I'm sorry, but I can't see her LA paying out the price difference between her local care and almost certain higher charge for similar in London.
LA's adult social care budgets are already stretched to their limit, so why should they deplete their budget further for one patient?

Honestly I could write a book of absolute horror stories based on years of community nursing and caring for 2 sets of sick, elderly relatives, supporting friends and neighbours caring for sick elderly relatives. There may be some wonderful people around, but IME trying to get support and correct information around this is desperately stressful.

But it just feels like her current council would be quite delighted by me taking her off their hands and landing her on my council

But why would your council wan to take her? There's no money or house to sell...why would they want to take on the expense to make your visiting easier?9

Are the council paying for her current placement? If so they’re trying to pass the buck to the receiving area LA to fund but this is bad practice and the new area will argue it.

Ask them for an out of area search and have in mind the homes you want. They will probably argue but they have to fund it in the new area if she’s got the eligible needs. They may only fund the new area’s ‘banding’ rate though so if the home you want costs more and you can’t fund the difference she doesn’t move there. Try to find homes that will accept council residents.

CHC doesn’t come into it otherwise she should already be getting it, however nursing care homes get FNC (funded nursing care) which is added on top of the fee the council will pay.

They won’t. They will expect her to be funded by the council she is moving from if they are already paying for her place.

Age UK will give general advice. Your comment about staff at Social Services is hackneyed and trite. If there are any Social Workers or Solicitors here who understand LA and NHS duties under the Care Act, Mental Health Act, Mental Capacity Act, Human Rights Act who are willing to give up their lunchbreak to help OP I’m sure they will.

Has she ever been on S3? Is her current care S117 funded or NHS continuing care or just usual LA funding?

For S117 the current authority has to continue to fund even if the person moves out of area unless they are redetained on S3 in the new area. Many London councils are actually happy if someone moves to a cheaper area as it costs them less.

My comments are based on my experience. I can't change that. I hope OP does get some good advice to help her navigate her very difficult and distressing situation.

You are making it less likely that she will by being rude about the very people who might be able to help her with what is a very complex issue.

The LA where OP lives probably won't allocate a SocialWorker. It is the LA where she is ordinarily resident who has responsibility to her under the Care Act.

Ordinary Residence rule means that your mum's local authority would fund out of county. If you choose the care home/s you would like, present them to your mum's social care team and they should arrange with their contracting departments.

Consider making a formal complaint.

You absolutely should not move her privately and make yourself responsible for her fees. Your home LA might well refuse to pick it up if you did that. Plus you wouldn’t seem to really have any legal basis to decide to move her without having LPA. There has to be a BI meeting to agree that as she lacks capacity (it likely is in her best interests)

Why the mention of CHC? Is she eligible for CHC? Very few people are. That’s a whole different NHS pot of money and team to deal with. If the LA are already funding it’s no advantage to her to get CHC so not worth bothering from your POV.

I can’t really understand why they have said you should take her out privately and I think it’s incorrect advice and that you should ask to speak with their manager or make a formal complaint.

It’s not at all unheard of for people in care to move out of area nearer their family. The LA currently paying has to continue and, like I said, they are usually pleased with a move out of London as it saves them money.

I can understand them not seeing this as an urgent issue as she is already somewhere safe and cared for from their POV whilst they have lots of folk at home/ in hospital who are not but I don’t think they can say it’s not their issue at all. They need to assign a social worker.

DOLs might help you here? You will be her RPR under DOLs and you could say that in that role you object to her being deprived of her liberty in the current care home as not being in her best interests and request a BI meeting be set up

I know it’s hard to hear this but I used to work in care homes and found big moves took a massive toll on our clients health. I understand wanting her near to you but be prepared for a further decline in her health. It’s a tough decision, I would get a private ambulance and ensure she is changed and her position moved every hour. Good luck

well done for trying to do the best for your poor mum.

She'd be moving out of London - I've spoken to several nursing homes local to me and they all think it would be considerably cheaper to have her down here.

I cannot see that a move in her condition would not be a detriment to her. It will be a huge upheaval and likely to decline her health problems.

Thank you. We've had the BI meeting, but that was only saying she should move out of hospital into nursing care - not looking at where that nursing care should be. They have assigned a social worker, but because it's nursing care, it's now been moved to an ICB decision, so not the council anymore (but it will still be the council funding it, I think?). They are being very careful not to put the moving her privately into writing, so I think they know that's a bad idea on lots of different levels. They're the ones who raised the CHC point - this is the problem with her being so far away. It just goes round and round in circles.