Poa use or money

[Sleepybear1234]

Hi I am just looking for some impartial advice please to settle disagreement.
If somone has dementia can their family set up poa when the person doesnt know what they are signing and won't remember anything past around 10 minutes.
Are the poas allowed to give loans to themselves of £15000 to one poa and split the remaining 30 k three ways into the others bank accounts in effect emptying the persons savings account if they believe they are protecting the funds from tax government etc 🤔 I think I know the answer but am working against a lot of people telling me I don't know what I am talking about and it's none of my business . The person has no direct access to money now and has had a fair few services cancelled on their decision as its a waste as he has dementia
Thanks in advance

The POA has to be set up while the person donating it still has the mental capacity to understand the decision that they are making, weigh it up and communicate that decision

The person who is given POA must act in the best interests of the person who has donated it at all times

POA must be signed by the donor while they understand exactly what they are doing, and must be used strictly for the benefit of the donor. If a POA is being abused, I believe you can report it to the Office of the Public Guardian.

No, a POA can only be set up while the person is of sound mind.

You can lodge a complaint to the office of the public guardian if you think someone is abusing their rights as a financial POA.

Absolutely not. Office of Public Guardian now!

Are the poas allowed to give loans to themselves of £15000 to one poa and split the remaining 30 k three ways into the others bank accounts in effect emptying the persons savings account if they believe they are protecting the funds from tax government etc 🤔

And no, purposefully trying to ‘hide’ money like this is not allowed and will soon be discovered if the person who’s money it is needs care it’s depreciation of assets.

Deprivation of assets I think you meant @Changingplace . You're right, though.

It's too late for a poa once the person has lost capacity, the office of the public guardian can help but it costs so much more to sort out.

And no, people can't "borrow*" ( more like steal in my opinion) money.

No. POAs can only be put in place while a person is of sound mind. It would be considered fraudulent and abusive to attempt to put in place a POA for someone who lacks mental capacity. And taking all their money would also be fraud and abuse.

If not of sound mind the person wanting to take responsibility would have to apply to the court of protection to become their deputy. The deputy will get a court order to tell them what they can and cannot do.

Thank you so so much everyone this is what I have said but ranks have been closed and I have been made to think I don't understand enough about it well even before I spoke to you all I certainly know what isn't morally right and clearly disgusting to add to this they have not been meeting his basic care needs which has made me livid this plot will be helpful for me to show to anyone who is telling me I'm a trouble causer and will split the family 😪

Post not plot sorry but emotional typing x

You need to make an urgent safeguarding referral to the local authority AND report the matter to OPG.

Thank you @Beagleknievel now I know I'm right this is what I will do x

If somone has dementia can their family set up poa when the person doesnt know what they are signing

Absolutely not! This needs to be reported to the OPG: www.gov.uk/report-concern-about-attorney-deputy-guardian

Are the poas allowed to give loans to themselves of £15000 to one poa and split the remaining 30 k three ways into the others bank accounts in effect emptying the persons savings account if they believe they are protecting the funds from tax government etc

See my previous response. It's presumably it's some sort of "cunning plan" to avoid paying for care ... aka fraud. I'd probably report that to the local authority.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you and wish you luck.

Thank you @Gonners so helpful to know I'm right in a sea of we have the best interests at heart whilst simultaneously not buying them clothes not much in way of food and each time they fall saying they won't get carers in he won't allow them and it's a waste of money I feel so sad feel like they think it is their money 😢 makes it worse when the person has been nothing but good their whole lives x

For added context the one with the loan has spent theirs of the others two have said they are keeping theirs for safe keeping one has said they will give it back if needed but haven't yet I don't think this is so much more than misguided attempt at protecting money I feel now after speaking to you all I just can't understand people x

That's appalling and fraudulent. You can report as a safeguarding issue to Adult Social Services at your local Council and the OPG.

It is a huge responsibility being an Attorney. I keep spreadsheets of annual expenditure, invoices, etc. It's almost like having business accounts. Every decision made is run past the other Attorney (who is remote). It is a burden that weighs heavily at times, however, my donor (who I am live in carer for), never goes without anything that is needed. It is absolutely their money, to be spent on them to provide them with the best possible quality of life. This is my second time as Attorney for someone.

It's funny they are accusing you of not knowing what you're talking about, when clearly they don't.

I can't imagine the powers that be will look kindly on that money essentially being stolen - and then spent?! Definitely report ASAP.

@unsync they way you have dealt with your situation is exactly how it should be done with kindness and care and to help not to get a quick buck the more I speak to you all the sadder I feel that I didn't follow my gut and pry more and instead just pulled more weight filling the void it was only when someone else told me what had exactly happened and I wasn't mad that I have posted on here as well as confronting them all I was so angry though I worried I had gone too far the words I used couldn't be put on here 😊 good on you being one of the goods ones that can be trusted xx

@FirstTimeHomeowner thank you I have only posted on her once before as soon posts I read tend to tell the poster they are wrong criticise actions etc this hasn't been the case this time so thank you xxx

No, they’re wrong and you’re definitely right.

My ex husband and his siblings had LPA for their father, who is sadly now no longer with us. When it was signed he was just on the edge of having capacity to understand it, and had the solicitor involved not been a family friend, I don’t think it would have gone through.

In terms of the “loans,” what they’re definitely trying to do IMO is keep that money from being spent on future care, or just trying to take it from a person who doesn’t understand/won’t remember. Or worse, prevent it from becoming an inheritance problem further down the line. All of those things are despicable.

That's awful, really feel for you 😔

@SleeplessInWherever you're right just wish I would have followed my gut sooner didn't sleep last night but they won't have lost a wink doubled down on the we have done nothing wrong and it's our business not yours you are not poa thanks for replying x

Are POA accounts and expenditure/disbursement checked by any independent party/entity say annually?

If not, then all POAs are surely open to being misused by wayward attorneys? It would put you off doing it - unless there are safeguards, maybe there are....

@halava I have no clue but would like to think there would be otherwise like you say they are left at the mercy of the people surrounding them 🤔

@Sleepybear1234 You can only do so much when you come up against that sort of person. Have a think about what you can do to help the affected person and how you can improve or mitigate their circumstances. I always think that if you can sit with your conscience and be ok with what you have done, then that's OK.

People often say with dementia what's the point as the person won't remember, but they can absolutely feel joy in real time, even if they can't remember that later. Music is great for triggering memories, we do a lot of singing here!

That’s what the Office of the Public Guardian is for, but to be honest I think they only investigate complaints or disclosures, rather than do spot checks.

If it was established during probate or when care was being arranged that money had been intentionally hidden, they may well look into who hid it and why etc, but I don’t think they’re doing sample checks of people with LPA.

That’s just from what I can see online so may be wrong!