Poa use or money

[Sleepybear1234]

Hi I am just looking for some impartial advice please to settle disagreement.
If somone has dementia can their family set up poa when the person doesnt know what they are signing and won't remember anything past around 10 minutes.
Are the poas allowed to give loans to themselves of £15000 to one poa and split the remaining 30 k three ways into the others bank accounts in effect emptying the persons savings account if they believe they are protecting the funds from tax government etc 🤔 I think I know the answer but am working against a lot of people telling me I don't know what I am talking about and it's none of my business . The person has no direct access to money now and has had a fair few services cancelled on their decision as its a waste as he has dementia
Thanks in advance

@unsync how lovely I feel like you say that people write someone off once they become old get ill etc it's atrocious and like you say just because they don't remember the joy doesn't mean they can't feel it x I'm gonna fix this if it kills me not letting them get away with it and I'm going to massively spoil my lovely grandad now xx

Thank you @Greyoutside xx

When you report it to adult social care make sure you are absolutely clear that the person is being left without care/food etc as a result because that is what changes it from Just being a concern of financial abuse to also being a neglect concern which will be given a higher priority allocation.

@SleeplessInWherever That's what I thought, but wasn't sure. It is hugely recommended that certain people arrange LPA/POA in certain circumstances, or in the event of certain circumstances. Gosh you'd really have to trust the attorney(s) implicitly to hand over all your assets like that.

I actually have LPA set up for myself. I do trust the two attorneys, but honestly.... you can never be 100% sure can you? Anyway, the thing is, if it is needed I'll be away with the fairies anyway I am sure that my needs and wishes will be met as a minimum! But again, it's a risk isn't it?

I think a safeguard would be that on application for Probate, the POA accounts must be submitted to account for the difference between the value of the assets at the date the power was activated, and the date of death. Just me thinking out loud here!

This sounds rubbish OP. But it is actually quite hard to prove a person didn't have capacity at the time the document was signed. You can still perfectly legally make a power of attorney even if you have a formal diagnosis of for example dementia.
However the defrauding sounds terrible, so please do flag this with the OPG

@SafeguardingSocialWorker thanks for this advice and I will xx 😔

@Mebebecat this is my worry they have been so crafty so I don't doubt they will have it all looking like they have done nothing wrong but I know they have I just don't want to do anything that makes things worse for him after what they have done x am I just focusing in the money then although I dont want it when really I should leave him happy without knowing what they have done and just look after him myself xx that way there want be any drama I'm so mad at them I could scream

Absolutely. It’s a huge shame (and that’s an understatement) that it’s so easily manipulated as a system.

My ex’s brother for example, transferred money from his father’s account regularly, for things that would never have required being repaid before. Fuel costs for visiting him, inviting him out for meals then using his card to pay, new bedding of a FAR higher quality than the the original when he had a wetting incident whilst staying over, charging him for a family Sunday lunch. And Christmas lunch.

The clear worst was using his card for a takeaway after he’d already died. Or also using it to pay for removal services from his then empty property.

No big expenditure, rather a “drip, drip” of funds from one bank to another.

I do know that absolutely none of that was ever reclaimed by his estate, or queried.

Making decisions in someone's best interests doesn't in my view mean sticking exactly to what they would have done in different circumstances. So for example I buy much posher clothes and skin cream for my mum than she would have bought for herself, plus flowers for her room that she would only have grown herself and would never have bought - but she is bedbound with minimal quality of life and where there is some kind of sensory pleasure that I can give her with her own money, then I will (plus I am working full time and so I buy clothes from big shops rather than spend time trawling charity shops). I also do fund some travel costs because she used to do that herself, and because some visits wouldn't otherwise happen and they benefit her. She can afford the care fees too.

I guess I'm saying that specifics may vary, but the person's best interests need to be front and centre. That doesn't sound like what is happening here.

@PermanentTemporary thank you and that's my issue here if for instance he was well looked after had access to money i may have thought maybe he would lend one of them money if they needed it x but why have they all taken a chunk is beyond me I also don't thunk we would have know what they were doing if he was being looked after as suspicions wouldn't have been raised due to worry x I also wouldn't give a hoot what they spent it on it it benefitted him or even if it didn't butbthey genuinely thought it would and were misguided xx you are very thoughtful doing that for your mum and I would have no complaints of they were doing that here xx

If they’ve moved huge sums of money around into their own accounts then that in itself is in beach of the role of a POA, as well as depreciation of assets for care, even if it’s hard to prove whether your grandad had the capacity to agree to the POA.

Good for you sticking up for him here, it’s awful what they’re doing, please do report it.

Do you know what bank the money has been transferred from? I wonder whether it’s worth alerting them too? I’d be surprised if their fraud department hadn’t clocked such large sums being moved around and that it’s unusual behaviour on those accounts.

As well as raising a safeguarding concern with the local authority please also make sure you report the movement of money, either loan or theft ( if your grandfather does not have the capacity to make an informed decision about a loan and the money has been spent and not paid back, I would suggest theft) to the Office of Public Guardian with all the details you can. You can find them online. They can request copies of bank statements and accounts.

I've done many similar investigations and we always get the bank statements eventually even if we have to go to court for them.

If we find evidence of theft we will involve the police. If we/they believe someone has also been neglected because of financial abuse and a choice has been made not to spend their funds on care which has left them at risk we can also suggest wilful neglect charges under the mental capacity act.

If there is evidence of misappropriation of funds the OPG will go to court to have them removed as LPOA

they might get away with a slap on the wrist from all agencies, but they won't be allowed to carry on doing it and will be asked to pay the money back or potentially be charged with theft.

@Changingplace thank you yes I do know the bank I'm not sure if they have transferred it online or something as I am puzzled how a bank wouldn't raise issues with this amount of money being moved but that being said if they have poa they may not have thought anything was wrong xx

Does this relative had Attendance Allowance ? My husband had full which is about £108 a week which was spent on his welfare and didn't have to touch his savings at that point.

@Carpediem15 I honestly don't know at all and as I'm not poa I dont think I will be allowed to find out from them xx

I am in a similar situation and it's awful I reported my dsis to office of public guidance about 9 months ago and they updated me 2 months ago saying it hasn't even been assigned to a case worker yet as they have a huge backlog I reported to adult safeguarding team who visited dm a week later and have forwarded it to the police and after speaking to them briefly and being given a crime reference number haven't heard anything from them for months so I am not holding out much hope of anything being done
The banks have been useless dsis was regularly transferring money to her own account before and after the poa was registered with them and to my knowledge nothing got flagged up i even emailed them with my concerns

Hopefully you will have more luck than I am as dsis has managed to remove me as poa do an equity release mortgage on dm house and dm thinks she may have changed her will while these investigations have been going on

@Sleepybear1234 sadly as you are finding out when there is money involved some peoples morals go out the window.

Expect your relatives to try to gaslight you and use DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim Oder). Stick to the truth you are only interested in the money as it is your Grandad’s and should be used for his benefit.

You will also need to be proactive with SS and OPG and accept it will take a long time.

These Links may help
https://www.gov.uk/report-concern-about-attorney-deputy-guardian

https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney

@Harassedevictee thanks for this message it came at exactly the right time as over the last few days this is what I have been facing had a bad night last night feeling guilty and then thought what am I feeling guilty for those links are a great help x I'm slowly finding out like you say not everyone's morals are the same x

@Sleepybear1234 one piece of advice from one going through something similar is have a trusted friend to talk to.

I am fortunate enough to be able to pay for counselling plus I have a good friend. I have needed both to help cope with the emotions - anger to tears and back again, frustration, emotional blackmail etc. it really challenges you to keep on doing the right thing.

@Harassedevictee so sorry to hear you have gone through something similar 😢 luckily I have really good friends.I can talk to but I was starting to feel like I was boring them although they assure me I am not x take care of yourself and thanks for taking the time to respond x

@Spendysis how awful is that this is 2hat I think is going to happen in my case x and wagt can I do if the authorities aren't interested the poa seems to be left to do what they like x did your sister change what she was doing after you confronted her or did things carry on the same way x I'm hoping that the guilt of being caught will stop them but they seem to have closed ranks and told me to mind my own business I doubt they even feel guilty x one of my friends said the same as you that her mum had reported a family member and the authorities weren't interested and in the end the people she reported moved the person into a care home and wouldn't tell them where he was and that's the last thing I want as my grandad is the closest person to me xx

@Spendysis this us awful :( Does you DM have capacity? Could she remove your sister as POA and reinstate her will to her wishes?

@Changingplace not sure on her capacity diagnosis she is forgetful and repeats herself but that might be old age

Over the weekend the police called to say they have closed the case they visited her and she says she's fine nothing is going on they will reopen the case if opg come up with something which I am not holding out much hope for as I raised my concerns back in January and only heard from them in July after the police contacted them to say it hadn't even been assigned to anyone due to a backlog and they don't deal with coercion that's a police matter

The police advised me dm does want a relationship with me and my dc and encouraged me to see her so I went round yesterday with some cake and she was pleasant but didn't even invite me in the house when I questioned aren't you going to invite me in she said no reason to invite you in I am not doing anything? She is 84 never does anything other than watch the tv these days and usually wants the company I couldn't question her on the doorstep as she has a ring doorbell that is linked to dsis phone. Used to have a key to her house my childhood home but dsis has changed the locks 2 of her friends have keys as they sometimes take dm to appointments that I am not told about but I no longer have a key

@Spendysis that's awful I am in the same position with the ring door bell it's feels like you are being policed each time I have been round this week someone has turned up just after me or spoken through the doorbell x sending you lots of love ❤️ it's such an awful position to be in xxx