How do you talk relatives out of ritual circumcision of a child?

[UrbanDad]

A (non=-ewish) female friend of mine is married to a quite nice jewish DH. They have just had a baby boy and DH's parents and aunts/uncles are putting pressure on him to have their DS circumcised. DH is equivocal but my friend is dead set against it. I think it's barbaric - how would you react to a member of your family putting pressure on you to mutilate your child's genitalia? No apologies - it's child abuse pure and simple and should be criminalised. Religion is no excuse for this mediaeval, unenlightened superstitious crap.

Has anyone got any experience of talking moronic religious extremist relatives out of this stupidity? (Apologists for/proponents of/justificants of ritual circumcision please don't even bother responding to this post.)

[pooka]

Of course the ultimate protection against HIV is wearing a condom. I think the cost of routinely circumcising boys in order to limit spread of HIV would be better spent on educating people on the practice of safe sex.

I also fail to see that that is any reason in the UK to perform a circumcision. Also the cleanliness issue is pants too. How hard is it to clean an uncircumcised willy after all? My DH, and the men I have known seemed to manage just fine. . You might argue that it's fairly tricky to clean the labial area of a woman. But we all seem to manage. And those tricky fingernails, always harbouring germs and so on. And yet we manage.

But you know, I kind of agree with Lulu (despite being v. anti-circumcision) that the OP was ill-advised in calling it child abuse. Is more complex than that when we are talking about religious beliefs and circumcision. I don't agree with it full-stop but I would stop short of labelling those who do, abusers. I don't think the post was racist but I do think it was unnecessarily inflammatory.

[ihearthuckabees]

I think accussing the OP of being anti-semitic is pretty offensive.

OP is anti-religious and anti-circumcision. NOT anti-Jewish. Some people are being extremely defensive about this.

[bloss]

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[bloss]

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[Lulumama]

well, you know, i was personally offended, and found the inferences of the OP to be offensive. you can argue i am reading stuff in that is not there, but that is MY PERSONAL feeling. and i am entitled to say why it is offensive to me, jhust as everyone else is entitled to say why it is not offensive

no problem with robust debate, but IMO< the OP was not wanting a debate. he asked people who were 'apologists' not to post

that was not encouraging robust debate



I am allowed to feel offended.

you are allowed not to feel offended

neitehr one of us is less right or wrong, but there is always room for respect

there is none of that in the OP

[DadInsteadofMum]

[dips toe in water knowing he is going to regret this]

Having read the original post - I did feel it was [searches for neutral type word] insensitive and maybe didn't convey what was intended and probably could have been phrased a lot better.

But have you checked which section this is posted in. And you are surprised that a bloke has said something insenstive that could have been phrased better and then refuses to back down? What saintly DHs you all must have.

[jellybeans]

Unless it's medical, male or female circ is cruel and barbaric IMO. Some jewish people are doing non circ bri's now. Lots of things in the bible are not done anymore. Sadly, not much can be done to talk someone out of something they are already set on doing. I am pretty sure, eventually, it will be outlawed, how can it not be?

[Gorionine]

"" It's an awful practice which has no place in a civilised society. If an adult wants his foreskin removed for whatever reason, fine, but to inflict it on a child - appalling."" from Paolosgirl Sun 25th Jan 09 16:49:54

We had our eldest boy cicrcumcised when he was 5 for religious reasons, also, with Islam, I am enclined to think that religious and hygiene reasons cannot be separated. He was explained the reasons why and also he was a bit scared about "his operation" he was not traumatised and definitely does not feel like he has been abused. He is actually quite exited for his little brother who wil have his operation this summer. I do not know at what age Jewish people get circumcised, would it make a difference to you or none at all?

[bloss]

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[Monkeytrousers]

Lulu, of course you are allowed to be offended. I respect your right to be offended. But taking personal offense is very different from then calling someone racist or anti-semetic. Those are seriosu charges and your offense - and your demand that your offense be respected - shouldn't then stretch to you personally slandering someone, should it?

The OP didn't slander anyone. He criticised a relgious practice. Even if it was insensitive, that only equals insensitive, not racism. Thats the only point I'm making. I'm not taking away your right to be offended at all.

[jellybeans]

I have read that some babies are so quiet as they are shocked. How come we protect out baby girls but not boys? The stats are crazy in support of circ, it's like the logic of re,oving a girls breasts unless she gets breast cancer.

[MKG]

I'm one of those stupid people that have had it done. I'm in the US and it's totally normal here, so it may only be barbaric for you if it's not the norm where you live.

First I let my dh decide. Since I don't have a penis I thought his input was more important than mine. He knows people that have had to have it done later in childhood due to infections, and thought it would be better to do it younger. But then again he is from a small town in Mexico (where they don't do circumsize) where children still die due to complications from a cold or the flu.

Second, if it's abuse than why did ds1 sleep through his? He was asleep, anesthetized (sp), and had no clue.

Third, it is such a bad comparison to make between female circumsision and male circumsision. Like I said, male circumsion (how it's done here) is done by a doctor, in a hospital, with sterile instruments and anesthesia to an infant that will have no memory of it the next day. Female circumsision is done to a girl of 12 or 13 years old, in a hut/home, often with dirty instruments and no anesthesia. Often scarring her for life physically and emotionally.

[jellybeans]

sorry that should say 'in case' she gets breast cancer.

[georgimama]

I'm not Jewish and I found the OP offensive. What is the point of coming onto a forum and posting a rude aggressive post which concludes "if you don't agree with me don't bother posting?"

And then abandoning the thread.

Circumcision on an 8 day old baby has nothing in common with female circumcision. That is such a piss poor argument I'm not even going to bother to point out why.

Both of my brothers were circumcised at 2. My mother's choice for hygiene reasons. They don't consider themselves abused, funnily enough.

[onager]

[georgimama]

Jellybeans, that logic is not logic. It's nonsense. Chopping off a boy's foreskin doesn't leave him unable to perform normal physiological functions. Chopping off breasts would.

Why have I just bothered to explain the difference when I said I wasn't going to?



I'm going to get a sandwich.

[onager]

If it's truly for health reasons then have it done in a hospital under anesthetic. If the pain and everyone watching is part of the ritual then let's be honest about it.

[Gorionine]

I think the difference betwen boy (circumcision)and girl(excision)is the following: circumcision is the ablation of a bit of skin that is not physiologically needed and can get infected if not "cleaned" properly.

Excision on the other hand is the ablation of the labiae and clitoris. It suppresses the desire for a woman and also the pleasure she could get from a sexual relationship. This is why it can be considered as barbaric and should definitekly stop. I think even in counties where excision is still practiced, it is not legal.

Desire and pleasure are not suppressed with circumcision!

[pooka]

Could I just ask for clarification on what the "hygiene reasons" actually are?

I mean, really? Wouldn't it just be easier to tell a child/teen how to clean a willy (in the same way as you instruct a daughter how to wipe hygienically from front to back) than have a useful part of the body surgically removed?

To my mind the human body is wonderfully designed. The bits that were historically considered extraneous or possibly "risky" (i.e. tonsils, appendix, foreskin) are now understood to serve functions that would suggest that removal as a preventative measure is unnecessary (my mother and father both had their tonsils removed for example, because that was policy). Why remove something that serves a purpose and that is part of the original design brief?

[MKG]

Onager, they don't use a general anesthesia to do it, they use a lidocaine cream to numb the area. Ds2 was awake through his, the used the lidocaine and a sweet tasting pacifier through his. He cried for a few minutes and then it was over.

So ds1 was just sleeping and wasn't under the influence of anything.

[Gorionine]

My so had it done under local anestetic by a doctor and it was for religious reasons!

[pooka]

Gorionne, there are arguments (i.e. in the link below from megbussett which includes personal stories of adult men who wish they hadn't been circumcised) that the foreskin plays an important role in sexual pleasure for men and women.

[GreenMonkies]

Routine newborn circumcision is almost always done without any pain relief. Babies over 8 weeks old are given a GA, but under that and it's dont with nothing. Local anaesthetic gel or cream is sometimes used, but in all honesty this is a placebo for the parents as it literally only numbs the surface skin, and does nothing for the pain of having the foreskin seperated from the glans or when the skin is cut off.

Any one who thinks its ok should watch it being done.

It is not more hygenic or healthy, the vast majority of Europeans are not circumcised and they do not have cancer ridden filthy knobs, they keep thier willy clean, it's not difficult. And circumcision is done partly to reduce sexual pleasure. Mr Kellog (who effectively started the "tradition" of non-religious circumcision in the States) did it for exactly those reasons, it helped stop boys masterbating, it was driven out of "puritainism" not health or hygiene.

[Gorionine]

Pooka, I think whatever your or my opinion is, there will always be exeptions to a rule I am aware of it. My position is that to condemn circumcision and compare it to "child abuse" because it is not a practice you are accusomed to is a bit of an easy option.

[onager]

I hope everyone approving of it is going to GreenMonkies link.