Sanctuary wanted!

[YATTA]

I'll be brief.
Is there an active men's only forum around where I can talk relationships away from here.
DW reads Mumsnet regularly in case you hadn't guessed.

She will love it. She had her first swimming lesson today and while all the others were crying, holding mummy's hand and cowering in the corner - she strode forth and jumped into the water ahead of them all.

She promptly shat herself because she wasn't wearing her arm-bands and went right under for a few seconds. She thrashed about for a while and came back up and pretended that nothing happened.

She is sometimes more confident and nutty than we would like - but she will absloutely love nusery. No doubts about that.

Night.

Goodnight all.

Goodnight - hope dw has finished "storming off" tomorrow/today.

Good luck with sorting dd's sleeping habits.

Hi, just saw this post (i'm gmt+8)

I really feel for you!
We've been there. It took years and years to get my DH to talk, but when he got started, that's it, the firewall was down.

For us women, it seems to be different. We can be extremely open but we know how to hold a grudge]
Especially if things said touched a sore point and consciously or not affected our self esteem.

I realised in last ffew months that if you want to keep things together, you have to learn to let go.
I am blessed with the gentlest, most patient husband in the world. And one morning I woke up and thought, He is so "zen" I wish I could be like that! Then I thought OMG I would leave me if I was him. I can really be nasty can't I (not that I am really but compared to him........)

I think you can win her over by "killing her softly".

I would strongly vote against writting down list of grievances. What you want is to move on. Not have affidavits againts eachother that can come out weeks and months down the line to start a new rant about who did and did not make progress.....
What a bad idea!
If you are going to write to her, make it a love letter.

Good lluck.

PS: don't forget the kids are listening. Even if the arguments are not full frontal, they know the tension is there. It was really an eye opener for us when our 3 year old said, mummy, I don't want you shout after daddy!

Tell me about it!
Some bad language was used this evening and when MIL arrived to take her to their house DD repeated exactly what was said. Not very nice to hear.

just read the bit about your DW "storming out to her mums"

We have never lived close to our families and I think it has made our marriage stronger, having to sort things out without witnesses. Not being able to storm out to my mothers definitely helped me face him and most of all myself.

If you can have this discussion with her, try and explain that some things are best kept private.

If you only have the 2 of you to handle and if you want to make it work then you have to find ways to diffuse tension.

Try and identiify the triggers of your arguments (I found it's always the same silly little scenarios) and agree on a prompt to laugh it off and make up in the bedroom?

Yes - i agree. I just hope that she is not giving you pelters to her Mum cos that would be all you need. Having her getting involved and knowing all your private discussions and problems would make it even more difficult.

I know women like to talk to eachother about these things but it is best really to discuss it with friends and not close relatives.

yatta, I'm off to bed. Hope you can make peace and start some constructive discussion.
Remember time is a healer.
If you can just sit down and both agree that the bottom line is you wanna make this work and you don't want to let anger take over your lives, that would be great.

I remember I had so much anger in me. Still do sometimes. I just realised that it is not really important what you are angry about. It is the anger which is bad and all consuming and blinding and paralysing.
Remove the anger and you will (and her) find there is not so much cause for argument.

Very true, slim22. Last night was pure anger from her. I stayed calm, which I accept can come across as provocative in some situations, but I remained very conscious that I had a valid point to make last night. In hindsight I didn't handle it as best as I could, but was really upset that the one person in my life who I felt would be most sympathetic to my point of view was utterly dismissive.
I often worry that the only way she'll ever be happy is if everyone around her bows to her every wish regardless of what they have to compromise to do so.
EricL - I'm not too concerned about her goinig to her mum's. I think it's healthy to have a sympathetic ear nearby and most of her friends are spread across the country.
A lack of personal time means these are just the sort of things that can go unresolved between us.
I hope I'm not painting a really evil picture of her here. She has so many wonderful things about her, it's just that at the moment I'm not accessing them.

I understand xactly where you are coming from.
You are saying exactly what DH said and I feel really sad realising once again how he felt!

She probbably has good reasons to be angry but there is good channce they stem from self issues rather that relationship ones. That is often the case. And if you look at the way you handles last night, you are probably doing it too. You admit yourself that your ddeadly calm was provocative.

What both of you want at this stage is total honesty towards your partner. That starts with total honesty towards yourself. You both need to learn to recognise the patterns of behaviour/discussion that lead to an argument.
ie:
she snaps at you or the kids for no reason, you try to calm things down but with that tone of voice or look that means "here we go again", she gets angry, you pretend you are calm, she sees it at a provocation and engages in argument, you thinks she really means it and you start pouring out your heart (that's where we are wired differently......she just wants a fight) and then (because she just wants a fight) she realises she can not handle this discussion and becomes dismissive.

Hope you get my point. It's a bad pattern. we all do it, we all know it's pointless. you BOTH need to recognise it and decide TOGETHER:

1. OMG, we are just being silly again, shake it off with a laugh
2. OMG hold on a second, you really hit a sore point there. Let's stop this ridiculous argumennt and sit down and talk this serious issue.

At the end of the day all this anger is just such a waste of those precious little times that we could be spending together as a couple. (And God knows that's not often with toddlers around)
You don't want to be one of this couples that suddenly wake up when the kids are grown to realise that you have nothing in common and you wasted 20 being unhappy?

Tell her that unhappy you are. Not angry, unhappy. Try to make her realise that her anger=misery. You can still argue that's healthy, but she's got to sit down and get to the bottom of it and understand why she is angry and not let this anger take over her whole life!

(as a clue, my unhappiness stems from being an expat wife and not being able to get my career back on track and lack of self esteem thereof)

sorry so long.......

Hello all.
Just to update you:
Things haven't got better
We spent a few days with relatives of mine. DW was reluctant to go at first, but I felt it was a good opportunity for us to spend time together away from the usual stressful situations. My family are unaware of how things are between us at the moment and DW would have been a bit outnumbered if I'd bared all while staying there. (Actually, they'd probably side with DW! They get on really well.)
We had one particularly nice day where we were able to get away, just the two of us, and spent a nice afternoon shopping and talking, not conclusively, but it was nice. It was still a bit awkward some of the time and I'm not sure if DW feels it was for the best.
But we're back now and I feel my optimism and determination to make things work is unfortunately unmatched by DW. She wants us to have a trial separation. I wasn't very forthcoming about that idea but my suggestion of counselling was met with equal scepticism.
I'd be interested to hear anybody's experiences of trial separations.

Agree with GL re. counselling. I have to take exception to the bits about "justify certain hurt inflicted now by me" and "I don't actually forgive him for the particular things he said". However wronged you feel, retaliation within a relationship and refusing to forgive are ultimately only self-destructive.

Counselling is the best way to save your marriage and getting everything unsaid (and it's surprising how much often goes unsaid in a marriage) into the open.

Hate to say it, but the trial separation thing is an admission of defeat (and it may mean your DW has already decided to set up camp elsewhere). I have never known a trial separation which did not turn into a permanent separation (including my DS and SIL), but I have known one marriage saved from the brink and turned around successfully by counselling. Some counsellors (particularly IME those without formal qualifications in relationship counselling) can do more harm than good, so beware.

Thanks Daddster.
Refusal to forgive... I can relate to that.
At the risk of sounding sexist - is that typically a female thing? I was chatting to my mum and she said she drags up things from years, even decades ago during rows with my dad.

She seems more open to the idea of counselling now. I wasn't aware that it can be conducted by people without formal qualifications, although as I type that I realise that's quite a naive view.
Well, if we can find a competent counsellor, hopefully they can help us address the damage our marriage has suffered.

About setting up camp elsewhere - I've had those anxieties a bit. I've been tying together lots of little things she's said recently and building that sort of picture. It's silly really, because although she's been really cold recently she's anything but evil. She did say quite bluntly the other night that she doesn't care about me anymore, but then there're still flashes of kindness which really warm me.

I miss her loads, but recognise she needs time and space (very difficult in our house). Her mum is being very supportive of her. I hope they're not just moaning about me!

I find it is a feamle thing, yes. I kick myself for it sometimes when my DW tells me off for something and I KNOW she has done exactly the same a while ago AND I CAN'T BLOODY REMEMBER! I fluff it every time and give a vague example which wouldn't stand up in court in any country.

I go away and kick myself and want to write these things down so i can remember them. (Obviously i never do - cos i forget i thoughT that a few days later...... )

She (obviously) has NO problem whatsoever remembering even my smallest slip-ups from 10 bloody years ago to remind me.

GODDAMNIT!

I agree with the trial separation bit too. That kind of thing can only be an absolute last resort AFTER counselling i reckon. Does sound like giving in to defeat too soon.

Good luck anyway. We are all rooting for you as we can see that you are putting in the effort to resolve this and bring her back to you.