wife rants and shouts at daughter

[Grammyka]

hi, i've got an awful situation that keeps coming up and i'd like some other views please.
basically it's like this.

My daughter - 7, who is, to be fair, a bit slack at the homework and room tidying, keeps falling foul of her mum for things like leaving her uniform in a heap. sneaking minutes on the iPad without permission, that kind of thing. all, from my perspective, normal for a 7 year old.

my mrs, is, for the most part a lovely patient kind caring woman but something about her dealings with my Daughter trigger the worst in her. This especially happens during her period. In the interests of balance i have to say that i am not criticising my wife for the why.just the how she deals with it.

This has been happening for the last several months. the mrs does not do this with our son, although he is a bit younger and maybe hasn't got to this stage yet.

So, it goes like this - the child does something like leaving her school gear in a heap my wife starts by asking her to pick it up - the kid is a bit slow on the move and will moan ( all normal, right?) so my wife raises her voice. This does not get the quick response she wants so she starts raising it some more. The Girl starts getting upset. The mrs starts properly shouting cos she is not getting the results she wants. The kid gets more upset. The wife smacks the kid - not abusive, not battering, just a tap really. the kid gets hysterical. the 'thing' that started it is still not done. The wife then starts ranting, shouting about other things that she now notices fall foul of her expectations. the kid is a wreck at this point, heavy sobs, tears streaming. The mrs makes threats about various sanctions she will impose if the 'things' are not done right now. This just makes the child's anguish worse.

Right about here i intervene. I do this because i think that beyond a certain point it is damaging to the kids wellbeing. I intervene by asking my wife to remove herself from the situation and let me deal with it. She resents this enormously and will often turn on me for undermining her - teaching the kid that it's ok to defy mum. I do believe that generally we should present a united front but this keeps happening and i've tried talking to the mrs to explain why i think she needs to adjust her methods. she is utterly unrelenting and unreasonable about this, so i don't know what else i can do, i'm trying to protect the kid.

My reasons are these :

Shouting at a kid is useful, for impact only, it should not be sustained or continuous, ranting at a kid is damaging and will not resolve the situation, it also teaches the kid that ranting is a way to achieve things, it is not. moving the goalposts to rant about other things is not fair and again damaging.

Once a child is crying you are not going to achieve anything through angry words. Continuing to shout at a crying child is pointless and indeed counter productive. Further, For me every time you smack a kid you fail as a parent, there are other ways to get things done.

This is having a seriously debilitating effect on my marriage and the 'D' word has been mentioned - never by me, by the mrs when she turns on me because oft this. She does have, and i hesitate to write it, awful hormonal anger and becomes completely irrational, aggressive and frankly impossible to talk to. she'll rant at me the same way, she'll do the same' finding fault with other things' she does with the child. for me at this point i tell her to eff off. loudly. she hates that of course. thinks its crude and not appropriate. i have to say i am always slow to anger, i always try reason, i always try to calm her down , but i might as well start by telling her to eff off for all the good it does, anything i say, do or don't do just makes her worse.

so what do you think. am i out of order?

what can i do to change this?

your thoughts and advice please.

What is it you want credit for?

It's nothing to do with whether you're a man or not - I don't think either you or your wife are handling this right. You asked if you were out of order - did you just want to hear that you're not, and your wife is a hormonal nightmare, or do you actually want to know what people think?

No, not all children should be removed, you're being absolutely ridiculous, OP has already said that the raised voice quickly escalates to full on screaming and then smacking quickly. Most parents have the ability to raise their voice to make their point without then going on to assault their child. Thats not what OPs wife is doing.

Always, on Mumsnet, when a man posts about his wife's anger/temper/etc., he gets some bonkers replies telling him he's in the wrong.

If the OP had been a woman complaining about her husband's anger and temper she would have received many shouts of 'LTB!'

OP, it is just for a week a month that your wife behaves like this? Or does she have a hair-trigger temper the whole time? What is your relationship like?

I have to say, I'd be setting down an ultimatum to her: either go to the GP and get some help with your temper/mood swings or leave. It might be hormonal, who knows?, but she has to accept responsibility for her behaviour and deal with it herself.

I wouldn't accept that from a father or a mother.

Till I agree, neither of them is getting this right. The wife's approach is no good, but I don't think the way that OP is behaving is right either. And he has asked for advice.

I think it's easy to say 'reverse the genders and x y z' etc, but that can be reductive and unhelpful - it's far too hypothetical. You might equally say that a woman who posted 'when I get wound up with DD, my DH steps in and tells me to do something else, then later tries to tell me it's my behaviour that is the problem before shouting at me to fuck off where the kids can hear' would probably not be told to dose herself up with fluoxetine!.

also , doesn't matter if it is the 500th time her behaviour is damaging. not to me to the kid. that is the primary concern here.

No, what I'm saying is that to you, it's just uniform in a heap left by a 7 yo which is "normal" to you.

To your wife, she's probably thinking, why have I got to pick this bloody uniform up AGAIN? why does my daughter think I'm a maid by leaving things on the floor for me to pick up? Whys does my husband think it's OK for her treat me like a maid? why can't a 7 year old pick up a small pile of clothes?

I'm not condoning the shouting and hitting, I am saying that to your wife a heap of clothes on the floor may mean she is of "maid" status and your daughter can just leave it there for her. She may have asked your daughter many many times not to do.

But we could all just agree with the OP that his wife is an inhuman shrieking monster when she has her monthlies and she needs to get herself medicated, of course, whilst he is a model of good parenting....

Definitely not saying that, OPs inaction is just as bad.

My childhood colours my responses a little because I had a screamy fisty mother and a step Dad who stood by and did nothing. They have been divorced a few years now and he often rings me, drunk (alcoholic) apologising for doing nothing.

I'm not sure whats more damaging to a child - the adult doing the abusing or the ones who stand, see all and do nothing.

The wife has issues. My first thought would be depression as it often masquerades as anger and an uncontrollable temper. Some people are just horrible cunts though. Either way, its not acceptable to do this to a child. Help needs to be sought, whether it's parenting classes, medication, counselling or a combo. For both parents.

I think you need a multi-pronged approach here.

1. Speak to your wife. Tell her it's important that she goes to the GP and gets some help with her temper. Her behaviour is unacceptable, and she needs to stop. Then let her do the work on that, she has to want to change her behaviour or it won't work.

1. Decide together on appropriate rewards and consequences for your dcs and make them very clear to the children. Then put up a united front with your wife in following through calmly on these.

1. Password lock the ipad. No more sneaking time then. Easy fix.

1. You step in sooner when there's a conflict. You've made it clear that it's a small house and you can hear what's going on, so for the next month (to get behaviour patterns established with your dcs), the moment you hear your wife remind your dd or ds to do something, if the child doesn't immediately get moving, back up your wife with a calm but firm comment along the lines of "Do as your mum tells you. Now." If the child still complains, then calmly issue the agreed upon consequence. No argument, no stalling, no further coaxing or encouragement. It's basically "do as you're told, remind, then consequence." Be consistent so the dcs understand that this is the way it's going to be. The minute you relax this, you're right back at square one.

Till basically I agree with you about everything except for the swoop/comfort thing - even in this instance, even where you know that it is going to escalate, I think swoop/support is better than swoop/comfort.

But as I say, I agree on all the rest.

You say you have the same rules but are you enforcing then? In our house, they are not allowed to do anything at all until uniform is off and hanging up. No lounging on bed. No TV. No iPads. No snacks. Nothing. I had to stand over them for about a week but now they only need reminding occasionally. They are too starving hungry after school to resist.

You are saying you step in straight away but how about you being the one to shell out the discipline in the first place. You, do the uniform nagging. And all the discipline for a bit. Rather than 'stepping in'.

Op-just ignore the posters that are like bull dogs.

Once your wife has raised her voice all rationality has gone. Nothing you say will work and will make it worse. I imagine your wife feels shit afterwards but during it sounds like she is uncontrollable.

I do think you need to draw a line under what has happened. Have a proper conversation with your daughter about what is expected of her and if she has forgotten something bot to answer back and moan about it and tell her the consequences of her actions-perhaps sent to her room or no iPad time. Perhaps incentives for keeping her room tidy like iPad time?

You must talk to your wife. Don't do it whilst the kids are up. Try not to blame. Perhaps ask if there is anyway you could help to help her? Talk to your wife about the rewards/consequences you have discussed with dd. Make sure you give dd 2 warnings calmly, remind her of them before following through.calmly has more of an impact.

Good luck.

ok, look, i've asked for advice. I've done that because i see it is damaging. i see that i am getting more angry and frustrated that whatever i do it seems to not improve. i accept that what i am doing may not be the right thing. i worry about it. i worry about the effect on my marriage, i worry about the effect on my daughter. I've asked total strangers on a random internet site for their thoughts. i did that because its not getting better and i can't seem to make it right. i don't know what i expected. illumination perhaps.

i have said clearly that most of the time we have a happy harmonious home. I've also said that this had been happening, every few weeks, for months, and that reasoned chats are not working. i didn't of course start off by stepping in like some indignant puritan, its come to me intervening because i don't know what else to do to protect the kid after months of trying to encourage change by talking. i am not looking for justification or agreement , i am not looking to blame my wife for everything. i'm looking for a solution. i want to understand where what i do is wrong, and also to know how i can approach what i know to be wrong in my wife behaviour to get her to listen, see the damage and change what she does.

i love my wife, i love my kids, i want everyone to get on and be happy. i strongly believe that aggression and shouting do not help anyone. i also strongly believe that self reflection and self awareness are fundamental.

it seems to me that the range of responses and opinions is so much chaff that it's hard to see the wheat. it also seems to me that each and every one can only give their own perspective coloured by their own experience. in that respect you are all no wiser than me.

thank you all for your contribution. i'm out.

Jolly good. Good luck to all of you. Sorry you didn't universally garner the replies you wanted, but I think you will find there is a lot of constructive and specific advice on here, even though you might have to swallow the fact that many people feel that shouting at your wife to fuck off isn't as good a response as any.

When you've picked up your toys from around the pram, read back.

I'd suggest she needs to start using a different way of getting your daughter to do what she's told... 1,2,3 magic book is useful, DD's school uses a kind of adapted form of this:

1. DD, can you pick your uniform up please.
2. DD, I have asked you to pick your uniform up and now I am telling you to pick your uniform up.
3. DD, I have told you to pick up your uniform. If I have to tell you again, you will

Always the same phrasing, all said completely calmly. Then enforce consequence without any debate.

I think if your wife had somewhere to go other than escalating to fury (which doesn't get her anywhere anyway) it would help immensely.

give their own perspective coloured by their own experience

Well, yes - that's mostly what wisdom is. I tried to give quite sympathetic advice based on my own experience and in fact am now wishing I hadn't aired my dirty laundry as it clearly didn't contain the kind of Magical Mother Wisdom you were after.

If your wife refuses to change her behaviour based on chats you've had, and jumping in to the situation earlier isn't working (and I can see why having to police their relationship is not practical), well, then, there's no answer is there? Other than LTB. Which is never as straightforward as those three letters make it seem.

What do you mean, we're no better than you? You've posted on a parenting website asking the advice of other parents. If you wanted medical or psychological insight you need to speak to a professional.

If you wanted a pat on the back and be told how awful your wife is then there are plenty of websites full of other hard done by men and you can all pat each other.

Your wife may well need help. She may need medical help or counselling. Or maybe she just needs her husband to step up and support her. Mind you, if you refuse to accept and acknowledge differing opinions at home the way you have on here then I doubt either of you will get very far.
Bye bye though!

Just another thought (in case you're still reading). It sounds like your wife's relationship with your daughter has become confrontational, mostly around household things. They're both geared up to reacting in a particular pattern to things, and this is damaging their relationship. It might help build it back up if they spent some 1-to time away from the house doing fun things together. I know with my son (who is all grown up and lovely now), there were times when it felt we were constantly arguing (mostly for similar reasons). It helped immensely to get away from the house and go out together to the pictures, or amusement park, to actually engage in a fun way with each other. We both remembered that we do love each other and don't have to be 'enemies'.

Agree with those who say there's a lot you need to try doing differently. You sound horribly like my husband who has a knack for NOT dealing with things and then saying entirely the wrong thing far too late.

Your wife indeed sounds like she's at the end of her tether, and needs some effective support to break the cycle. That needs you being genuinely hands on to change things. I suggest 1) focus together on setting rules / expectations boundaries for your children 2) maybe even decide on some simple chores 3) talk about rewards and consequences. explore charts etc. definitely agree time on the ipad needs to be earned / only when permitted / lost for bad behaviour

Then decide how you are going to remind your daughter of your joint expectations of her. Maybe write a script - but please find out if your wife thinks this will help rather than telling her "this is what you are going to do"!!!

Actually, thinking about it, please have these ideas in mind, but your job is to clear space so you and your wife can talk about how you are going to get your daughter to behave as you expect. But yes, your goal should be to both know what will be said as warnings / last chances etc. And then if you are as "hands on" as you say, try to make sure you get in there and model the desired approach until your daughter is starting to get the message and do as she's told!

How does your wife deal with your son? What are the dynamics there?

Your wife is stressed and you need to support her, as well as your daughter.

First, intervene in a supporting manner before your daughter gets upset 'would you do as your mum asks and put your stuff away please?' This will take the pressure off your wife as she will feel you are supporting her and taking on some of the childcare responsibility. HOpefully DD will then be shocked by the fact you are on your wife's 'side' (As it has come to that) and do what she is supposed to do.
then, when your kids are in bed you need to speak with your wife (not to her in a patronising manner) and ask if she is ok, is she finding things hard at the moment (answer is probably yet) and say that you don't like her shouting/smacking your daughter and let's find a solution that works when these situations arise. She may say that she can't 'help it' and 'red mist descends' - so if that happens your wife needs to walk away from the situation and let you deal with it.
If she does most of the child-rearing then she is going to have times when she loses the plot and so you need to support her when she asks your DD to do something like come off the ipad or whatever (you could set a timer for example on your phone and give a 5 min warning). Be consistent and work together for harmonious relations. It's hard on everyone - have been there myself, but things are so much better these days as mainly the husband and I work as a team with the kids.

My dp tries to reason with his son, my 'stepson', it never works. He just has to be told, checked, told again, checked, sanctioned.

All calmly though.

Great advice Boulevard......

quote:-
" 1) DD, can you pick your uniform up please.
2) DD, I have asked you to pick your uniform up and now I am telling you to pick your uniform up.
3) DD, I have told you to pick up your uniform. If I have to tell you again, you will

Always the same phrasing, all said completely calmly. Then enforce consequence without any debate. "

OP doesn't actually want to accept he could intervene earlier. He just wants everyone to go "God, what a bitch. Slip some valium into her tea."

I'm sorry the OP has been driven out. I grew up with a mum like this and it's incredibly damaging, but my dad often wasn't able to play referee due to work commitments.

It's the OP's recognition that she treats her DD differently to her DS that really chimes. She doesn't seem to need his 'support' there. Yet he's getting blasted for being unsupportive.

My mum was the same with my brother and me - fine with him but was like a red rag to a bull.

From my experience GotaBitTricky,s suggestion just wouldn't work. The escalation is rapid and uncontrolled - there is no asking 3 times and sanction. There's telling, yelling, and hitting. It's not rational.

It got to the point where my dad would send me to my room at weekends to keep me out of my mum's way. With her too it was a hormonal issue.

I grew up with a dysfunctional destructive relationship with my DM. It got worse when I was a teenager to the point where she moved out for a week because my dad had 'sided' with me. He hadn't he just stepped in because she was being vile. She made me feel responsible for their marriage and my dad's health. Even her friends and my Aunties used to take me aside to check I was ok - her aggression towards me was noticeable, but no one did anything.

I had therapy for depression and left home as soon as I could. I'm spending this Christmas alone because it's better than spending it with her. I feel sorry that my relationship with my dad has suffered because of how she treated me. Dad disciplined us too, but he was generally fair.

I'm sorry the OP has been chased off this board. I hope his DD doesn't have my experiences as a result.

I think part of this picture is that the OP tells us his own parents were quite harsh and disciplinarian. Were they more like his DW is perhaps?

OP, I wonder if you feel paralysed when the dynamic kicks off between your DW and DD because you can remember what it was like being the kid in that situation. I can see why that would be easily possible. It might also contribute to your DW feeling unsupported because you will be identifying 100% with your DD and not her, for understandable reasons rooted in your own childhood trauma.

The thing to consider in this context though is that if you stand by you'll be enabling a childhood like your own, for your DD. I think PPs have given good advice in suggesting that you need to back your DW up quickly and from the very first. That's one prong of the strategy. A few people have suggested how this might look - instruction, reminder, consequence and absolutely no shifting from that until the DD understands that she needs to do as she's told straight away.

But the other prong of the strategy needs to be about getting your DW to address her behaviour. Because if you're describing it accurately, it absolutely is abusive. No amount of being stressed or hormonally imbalanced excuses ranting at a 7yo until they're sobbing hysterically, and then smacking them. Do you have any sense of whether she feels her behaviour is OK, whether she feels guilty afterwards, what is gong on for her? If we had more of an understanding of your DW's perspective on these situations it might help people make suggestions for whether there is something you can do to support her in keeping her calm dealing with your DD. Or whether actually she reckons it's fine and that's just how she thinks parents behave, in which case you need to take a view about whether you can continue to be with her as a partner.