Feminism

[slightreturn]

Please feel free to express your views honestly re; Feninism.
What to men really think about it?

""you're all a bunch of man-haters" or similar. I think i'm right in saying that all the regulars on the FWR section either have male DPs, DHs or DSs, who we all presumably love, so just forget about that one eh? It just sounds desperate."

On the other hand, at least one or two people in that topic will happily throw around "woman hater" or "misogynist" as both insults and attempts to discredit or silence dissent. That is neither helpful nor accurate.

I hate to say it, habbibu, but it's male privilege than enables them to say that. I explained to my DP recently when I was really upset about some shocking sexism that I'd witnessed, that it's not that I choose to wind myself up, it's that he is able to choose to ignore it.

one or two perhaps Snorbs, see my comment above.

it's the idea that women have to court men to get them onside that's so tiring, if you have a DD then why aren't you as scared/hopping mad about these things as some women are?

Yes, the phrase "anti-feminist" and/or "misogynist" is far too readily used on that section. It seems to be the catch-all description for anyone who dares come in and question the prevalent tone of the debate.

You can surely question the way something is being discussed without being "anti" it.

NNNRRRGGHHHH. God, in Any Other Topic there are people who say provocative things. Mostly the discussions do not get utterly derailed - most people chat about The Actual Point. But feminism - if everyone is not playing nice,(by various definitions) it all goes to hell in a handbasket.

I think that's my point though. "Derailing", that's thrown around as an insult all too often too. Sometimes, it isn't "derailing" - which I understand as an attempt to get off topic or away from the "point".

In Any Other Topic people are allowed to bring in other opinions and evidence without being accused of "derailing."

"Where I think it's a problem is when it comes down to the whole "if you don't all play nicely I won't speak to you" thing. We're all individuals, and I don't have any more control over what dittany or Sakura or ISNT post, than I have over what BB or UQD post. If you've been put off by a few posters, you could probably assume that there are a majority of posters who are not attacking you, and discussing with you or even supporting you. Don't assume that one person speaks for all. This is one of the challenges of feminism - if a man drives badly, he is a bad driver; if a woman drives badly, women are bad drivers."

It does seem to operate under different rules from the rest of the forum, which is why I have by and large stopped posting there.

I started a thread about derailing which kicked up no end of a fuss. The reason I did that was because there had been a couple of loonies eccentric posters who had come out with some vile and upsetting stuff and basically scared people off from discussing issues.

Not because of a couple of chaps.

Come on - address my Civil Rights analogy.

Habbibu, I agree with you - what is it about this topic that causes such defensiveness, in men especially.

UQD, like many others on this thread, I agree that some feminists give the rest of us a bad name but that we shouldn't be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. But while some feminists are quick to use very negative language, there's an equally quick response to take offence and get defensive. You could argue that name calling is never helpful, but I'm afraid (and I'm not accusing you specifically as I haven't even spotted any such posts from you or others) there's a tendency to get all insulted and for the man involved to flounce off, feeling justified in simply refusing to engage any further any more. Even if there are 30 other women all making interesting, but challenging, points.

It's not a perfect analogy. Nothing ever is. I don't think "it must be exactly as I want it, or I'm not playing" is a fair description of my or other men's attitudes to the board.

Lazy, uqd. of course it's not perfect. doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed. it's not a bad analogy in many ways.

That's it Bling - no matter how many other women are listening, discussing, there is a huge keenness to engage with the one person who tells them to shove off.

Looking forward to the list UQD

BlingLoving - I'm sure you are right. There's a bit of banter and insulting in most of the topics on here, but in a topic like feminism it will always feel more personal - even when it probably isn't.

If someone called me a bit of a sad tosser for liking Girls Aloud or Doctor Who, in the Sleb or TV sections, I'd know it was not meant entirely seriously and would not flounce. If I was called it in the feminism section I would pull up a bit, because I'd have to face the likelihood that they really did mean it. And that there could be real venom behind it.

ok, maybe not fair. But what are you going to do? Wait until a certian percentage of feminists discuss things in a way that you find suits you, or accept that the ones who don't are a minority, and stil;l admit to being a feminist because at heart it's a good thing?

venom though - if i posted in the political section and was called a bad liberal or something, I would be more inclined to think "well huh i disagree" or "that person is a tosser", not "politics - so mean!"

"if you have a DD then why aren't you as scared/hopping mad about these things as some women are?"

I do, and I am. But I am also aware that I have to be extraordinarily careful about how and where I express my thoughts on it.

What am I going to do? Probably what I always do. Continue to discuss things with all the many reasonable people on here. Who are generally more likely to be found outside the feminism section

Also, I think there is an interesting debate to be had (but probably not here) about whether a man can actually "be" a feminist or just simply understand it. It can sound a bit wanky, a man saying "oh I'm a feminist, doncha know."

But that's exactly what I mean about civil rights/anti-apartheid. Supposing this forum had existed then, and some activists slagged you off for being white. There'd be venom behind that, for sure. Not justified at you per se, maybe, but coming from a deep well of frustration and anger. Is that a reason to say that you couldn't still identify as an activist?

Surley the analogy would not be their calling me white, but calling me racist...?

Well, Bill Bailey didn't look wanky in his tshirt

"There are a minority of feminists who believe that women can only become equal if men are undermined, belittled, treated unfairly, silenced and have rights taken away from them."

Who exactly? I don't know of any feminists who take that view. That's just a stereotype, not based in any reality I've ever come across.

And even if there were such loons, would that be a reason to be happy with the status quo as it is, with all its injustice?

Did the calls of Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam for the destruction of all the "white devils", justify a refusal by white people to engage in the fight for legal equality by the much greater number of black people who simply wanted to be regarded as fully human?

Those T-shirts are a bit wanky :) But Bill is cool whatever he wears.