Waiting on agents

[Madhairday]

I wondered whether anyone else is in the pit of submissions and might like to join me. I was on a thread like this a couple of years back when I wrote a YA (I had some interest but it didn't end up going anywhere) - and now I've written an upmarket commercial fiction (up lit) book and just about to start submission rounds. Part of me wonders if I am mad, going through that hell again, the rejections and the waiting, but I know I'd be cross at myself if I never gave it a try, especially as I've had extremely positive feedback from readers so far.

So here I am, collecting myself up, trying to craft a synopsis that simultaneously sounds alluring and yet reads as a plain old synopsis, and a covering letter that sings. Then there's the researching of the agents. I have just one in mind so far, so a long way to go with that.

Anyone else want to join the ride?

Thanks both, updating the bio today. Got the old Pratchett hat on to focus the mind and have used up all my possible distractions (worryingly though the weather is improving and I feel pulled to cycle or kayak) so I'm hammering away at what I hope to be the last edit on the novel. So much fat still being trimmed.

Heh... so I'm glad to say I got a rejection through today. Glad because it was a set of poems with the theme "Dead Cat Poem". What I delivered was so horribly derivative and childish (I'm no poet at the best of times) that I wouldn't have trusted them if I'd won.

I kind of want to read the Dead Cat Poems now.
I've been busy editing and cut 4,000 words of my darlings this week, so feeling nice and decluttered, and wondering if I've cut any crucial scenes. It's amazing how much can be cut isn't it. It's mainly backstory I've cut, so it doesn't drag the narrative too much.

How's everyone else getting on?

Trust me, you don't. I just know "too many high quality entries" had the phrase "and yours wasn't one of them" attached until the last draft.

Ahh, I think we've all seen that at some point :)

I'm being slower than I wanted to be with getting this novel ready for submission. The second edit is dragging a bit and I just want to get it done, but don't want to rush it. I'm thinking it won't be ready to submit until after half term now, but that should work well enough I think. If I can get the submission package ready to go before I go off on a half term break, I can then start blitzing agents in June.

Where's everyone else at?

I'm about to start editing my first draft. Oddly nervous about it, what if I cut out good bits by accident?!

I've also been taking a long hard look at my first three chapters and wondering how I can improve them. There are certainly better ones later in the book, but nobody is going to read them in the first instance.

@Drybird2020, I am also planning to start editing first draft this week. I have had a break and let things sit for a few weeks, during which time have acquired a puppy and written a short story (to allay my fears that I would never be able to do anything while looking after the puppy!) Quite pleased, as I rarely manage to finish anything short and potentially submissible.
I’m not so much worried about accidentally cutting good stuff, more just daunted about the process and being able to keep an overview of structure, which I need to look at, rather than getting caught up in nitty gritty. Just going to read through first - I’m sure there are passages I’ve forgotten are in there! Also find it hard to keep track of what I’m doing as only have time to write twice a week, on days I don’t work and kids are at school (and now have thrown a dog into this impossible juggling act, don’t know what I was thinking!)

I think you will regret asking for it (in it's defence it looks better when centred):

Dead Cat
Mortality is universal, all must die,
save for felis cactus domesticus.
We have but one life to live,
we have, not the cat.
We die once,
cat is 9.

A cat resurrects,
poor owners are left to worry.
What power gave the cat this ability;
an ability beyond us mere mortal humans?
What terrifying god creatures stalk amongst us,
whilst we plod our single, drab lives of service to you?

The cat is dead.
Schrödinger was wrong.
The old mythos was incorrect.
This does not sit alive and dead.
This mess is not going to miraculously be reborn.
The cat is dead.

They say we domesticated dogs,
but cats domesticated us.
If this is true then why let us drive?
Why give us metal cat-killers?
We don’t give our dogs guns,
for fuck’s sake.

Wake up, oh great master.
Be reborn.
Amazing hunters, silent runners, constant companions…
Why can’t you learn to look both ways?
Dead cat.
My cat.

You let us have cars.
You made us your servants but were too lax.
You didn’t evolve to our new world.
The mess doesn’t move,
it is cold now.
No answers here.

I bury my cat.
No words are spoken.
I blame my cat.
Why didn’t it come back?
Why did it run out?
How do I go on?

The cat is dead.
I am alone.

As for where I am...

I'm done. I've killed all the darlings I can face killing. I am considering another boxing for a couple of weeks to read one last time. I worry that my pacy end might be interpreted as me suddenly getting bored and rushing to get it done... or that the pace will be seen as uneven. All of it was a choice on my part and I fully plan to revisit some sections in flashbacks within the sequel.

In terms of worrying about chopping the good stuff, I might not be the right person to comment; I spent £2.75 submitting the above crappy Dead Cat poem and thought nothing of it. I think though it is a bit like the clean up or decision advice - imagine you've done it, is it missed. Steak or pork? Have someone decide for you, if you are upset with the decision then you know to go for the other. Keep old versions, chop and see. Does it still inform your character?

I've always thought of it as the Star Wars method of editing and now I've had to do it on the big scale I really, really believe that it is true:

A New Hope was incredible. We arrived in the middle of action with very little in the way of introductions to characters or the situation. The story was underway, every single character we met seemed to be living their own film that started long before this tale and would continue long after it. We just knew that there were pages and pages not shown that fleshed out the history the politics, the relationships... even the props all looked like they'd lived a life we knew nothing of.

Phantom Menace was meh. Every character stopped to introduce themselves. The action was staged, detailed and derailed itself. We got full explanations for motivations and whilst it pretended to be in the middle of the story it really, really wasn't. Every character bio was played out on the screen, every prop looked new. With good editing an incredible film was hidden amongst the noise waiting to be discovered.

Turns out that A New Hope was much the same and it took a fantastic editor to chop, trim and reshape the mess into the classic. You will be cutting some of your best scenes, it is the nature of the beast, but do those scenes move the story on? Do they contribute to the building tension or slow it? Do they match the tone and style of the rest or do they jump out? If you had to submit a section with them in to an Agent with no other context, would you be happy?

I loved my prologue. I felt it set the scene. It had some wonderful purple prose but when I prepared a couple of submission packs and they asked for the first 15 pages I realised that the story had barely started due to the prologue. Taking them out and the handbrake wasn't just off, the novel actually had a rolling start with a lot of the action having already occurred.

Been spending the morning working through Writing Magazine to pop all the competitions into my spreadsheet. Finally got round to checking my inbox to find I've failed with two more submissions, unlike the crappy Dead Cat I actually liked these. I do accept that out of 780 entries only 14 making the next stage is tough but it still feels like a gut punch.

Do any of you do the competitions (for the glory, the bio entry, the prize money or as a way of keeping warmed up and challenged)? If so do you think they get your best work? Do you feel bad if rejected by them?

Thank you, @Hippyshubbie, that's very helpful advice about editing. I've got a prologue too - I thought it was essential but now I think of it as half of what I submit I wonder if it's what I want prospective agents to see.

@celestebellman I can relate to so many of those pressures (minus the puppy, but I have a fair number of other living creatures to take care of, besides the kids) If I can get up extra early I can find a bit of daily writing time, otherwise I'm squeezed between school and nursery times on the days I'm not working. It's often a choice between living in slightly less chaos, or getting some writing done. Writing is winning at the moment.

@Hippyshubbie that's a really good analogy about the Star Wars films. I'm still going through mine trying to cut out any parts that try to explain motivations etc when the reader will have picked them up implicitly (hopefully!!) Like you I'm pretty much at the end, and will give it until after half term to rest and then one more read and send it to agents, gulp.

As for competitions (your Dead Cat had more to commend it than you think!) I don't enter many, I can't afford to keep doing so and they all seem to charge nowadays. I enter the odd one and I've been shortlisted and finalist a few times, and yes it still smarts a bit when I'm rejected, but it's the nature of the whole thing.

I had some good news this week, a publisher is interested in a new non fiction book I'm writing, so I'll have that to concentrate on once I submit and fall into the loooonnng wait - but I've got another fiction novel brewing and keep on adding notes to my phone in the middle of the night. My ideas on it are rather all over the place, but I guess that's how they all start, and I'm quite excited to discover where this one might go. Only thing is I've just started reading a book that has some plot similarities (The Midnight Library) so maybe I should abandon the idea. It's not very similar, just one of the plotlines has a similar theme. Hmmm. I guess there's nothing new in literature...

Thank you so much for that. I just read it to my wife and she laughed saying it was sooo me but also like beat poetry.

Good luck with the nonfiction work and the new idea.

I gave up on contests for the weekend as a friend, an artist, had an idea for a comic (Dads Vs Zombies) so the weekend has been script writing. Good fun.

Just to go back a bit - Drybird2020 wrote...

More difficult, I'm finding, is comparisons. It seems so arrogant to compare my work to that of authors I admire, additionally, I can't find anything that works as a comparison with my book. I read quite a bit of YA but maybe I need to broaden my reading (obstacles: time and expense!) Do you think comparisons are absolutely essential when submitting?

The thing to remember about comparisons is that it's not so much, "My work is like X's" -- it's more, "The people who like X's books will like my book." The agent wants to know what sort of market you might appeal to, and which shelf in the bookshop your work would sit on. But the actual books don't have to be like yours at all.

For instance, many readers like, say, both Kate Atkinson and Jonathan Franzen. Their books aren't very similar, but their audiences are. If you listed them as comps in your submission, the agent would instantly know who you were trying to appeal to, and would be able to give the publishers an indication of possible marketing spend, etc.

Good luck

I've been thinking about comparisons a lot, @squiblet, and I had eventually arrived at that understanding so I am glad that you have confirmed it for me! Thank you.

I've been reading Harry Bingham's book about writing and every page or two I think, aww shite, I've done it all wrong 😂

Flippancy aside, the book is helpful at the stage I am at now, but it's a bit depressing to realise just how amazing a book has to be to have any chance of publication.

I got signed by an agent at the beginning of the year and a book deal a few weeks later. But the work I had to do to get to that place in my writing career has been huge. I started writing seriously more than ten years ago, finished my first novel in 2017. I submitted it out and got nothing back. I took that as a sign I needed help and went on a writing course. I wrote book 2 with the knowledge I gained and submitted that out. I got plenty of full MS requests this time and feedback from agents but no offer of representation. I re-wrote book 2 using the comments I received in the submission process and I re-wrote book 1 in the light of what I had learned. I began submitting both books out. One agent liked book 2 but didn't feel it was right for their list. They asked if I had done any more writing and I presented them with book 1. They enjoyed reading it but thought it best suited to their colleague. When I heard who they were my heart sank as I realised I had already submitted this book to them back in 2017. But as it had been completely re-written they had no recollection of reading it and rejecting my work. This agent loved book 1 but wanted me to do some work on it. I agreed and did the changes they asked for. Then they asked me to do some more changes. I did them. I had nothing to lose (apart from my dignity) and after I submitted the second round of changes they called me and offered representation. They got me a book deal six weeks later.

It has been a very roundabout and convoluted journey for me. I am so sick of reading about writers who suddenly decide to pick up a pen and get signed for the first thing they write. IT'S SO RARE! A couple of my friends that happened to - they never actually got a book deal, because that's your next hurdle. Your agent may love what you have written but the publishers are a whole different kettle of fish. To my mind, the more effort you put in, the better you will be in the long run. Always keep writing, always keep listening to what others think because they are your audience.

The lessons I have learned are:
1)be persistent,
2)learn from the feedback you get,
3)do a course if you can afford it.
4)keep writing in the same genre.
5)a lot of success is down to luck

Quite a few agents asked if I had anything else to show them. I was eventually signed up for a two-book deal and instead of worrying about what to write for book 2, I have it already and just need to re-write according to my editor's advice. In the interim, I have finished a draft for book3 and planned out book 4 so if I have success with book 1 and 2 I don't feel too much pressure. I must have written over a hundred submission letters but once you are signed with a good agent, you shouldn't have to write one EVER again. I feel I have learned loads and I am so used to re-jigging my work I am probably really easy to work with now! OK, rant over. Good luck to you all, and don't be afraid to re-submit to those who rejected you if you have radically improved your work. Agents read over 200 submissions a week and honestly can't remember.

That's really interesting, @Vanta - thanks for sharing your story and I'm so pleased you got a book deal in the end. I think you're right, this is a long and laborious process. I submitted a novel around 3 years ago and got nowhere beyond a handful of full MS requests, so concentrated on other writing forms for a while (non fiction, poetry), and have had a little success in those, so I'm by no means at the start of all of this. I'm certainly not holding out or expecting to get an agent for this one, it's more a feeling that I need to at least give it a serious try and see where it goes. I've had some very good feedback from beta readers and that's given me some impetus to go ahead but like you say it's a tough game and agents see so many submissions, they are highly unlikely to look further at most. It's intimidating but still worth doing I think. I'm not against the idea of self publishing it in the end, I have author friends who do very nicely out of simply writing more and more books which gets them out there in that arena, but I do feel my novel is marketable now and well written so I have nothing to lose, I guess.

I hate the rejection emails, though, so not looking forward to that bit of the process! I'm just working with a publisher on a non fiction book though so I'm hoping that will give me focus to forget about the waiting bits and the rejection bits to an extent!

@Drybird2020 which Harry Bingham book on writing - just had a look and there are a few, I'd be keen to get one I think. Can never have too many books on writing

@Squiblet, helpful thoughts on comparisons, thank you.

@Madhairday if you are getting full MS requests (congratulations BTW) it is certainly worth pursuing. You should also be getting some decent feedback from agents who have requested the full MS and I think you should ask them for feedback if you don't hear anything. I got the impression that the more agents liked your work the more they gave pretty constructive feedback. There will always be agents who don't reply. It's very disheartening. The whole business is so much like dating! Hopefully one day you will find your perfect partner. I have come to understand that a lot of success seems to hang on the 'blurb', that paragraph that sums up the whole crux of the story. The blurb is used to hook in agents and when you have your agent, they use it to hook in editors they are submitting your work to. I have begun to plan novels out with a blurb first, to see if it works well in that way. I think it's great you are writing in different ways while you wait. You will find that all that work will come in really handy when you get a publishing deal. Keep at it.

Fascinating reading, thanks all for the input. Aside from just being a great read it also made me revisit some of what I've been sending out. This week I've been looking at things like First Chapter or First 20,000 word competitions and things like that. I know I have to up my submission game.

As has come up a lot on here, it used to be the case that to be an author you had to just damned well write the thing, sit and finish. Once finished if it was good enough you'd get help on editing, possibly even ghost writing (I've heard from a few different sources that a beloved British spy/thriller writer (not Le Carre or Fleming but just bubbling under their level) produced terrible manuscripts but brilliant ideas that someone else reworked into best sellers).

Then we had the time of King etc and the advice was finish the damned thing and then edit it until you bleed.

Now to be an author it is very clear sitting in the chair, writing, editing and so on are now just the start. Failed authors aren't those with dozens of unfinished novels in drawers but those who do finish but can't do synopses or good cover letters, or who don't want to research other authors or the agents. I felt so good about finishing the damned thing I hadn't really considered that I'd have as much, if not more, work afterwards.

I know what today is bringing then.

@Madhairday the Bingham book is "How to Write a Novel that will sell well and satisfy your inner artist". It's very practical, and entertainingly written.

@Vanta that was an interesting read, thank you for sharing your experiences.

I'm busy redrafting, making progress and taking time out to research agents when it gets too much.

Another rejection... competition one so not too bad.

Last night had a 250 word flash piece for a competition, I really think flash works best when it is done in one sitting for fun, so I asked my wife (no idea what her MN handle is now-a-days, as my name suggests once upon a time she was a Hippy on here) for 5 words... and boom, exactly 250 words putting Jack and the Beanstalk into the modern world with the US military involved, ending with the giant falling onto the army base.

I assume "ooooookay then" is a good reply from my wife, I didn't probe too deeply.

Ah thanks, @Drybird2020 - I'll watch out for that one, sounds good. I've been re-reading 'How Not to Write a Novel' which is excellent.

Hippy - that sounds...imaginative!! Good luck with it :) I've never really got into writing flash fiction, but can see it's a great challenge for shaping your writing.

Having had a wonderful holiday away from writing and everything else, I now have just a quick snag list to go through after reading through my second edit, and then going to give submissions a go. Gulp...

How's everyone else getting on?

Hi @Madhairday, I'm at a similar stage. Snag list is a great way to think about it!

That's exciting @Drybird2020. Do let me know how you get on.

I think I'm ready. I have my synopsis and covering letter written and I think I'm happy with them. I'm researching agents now and pretty much ready to go. Part of me is definitely holding back because I don't want to deal with the inevitable form rejections...

How's everyone else getting on?

I've sent out my first submission today....gulp! Now to send a few more out in the next couple of days. I was shaking when I pressed send 🤣