Please come and talk to me. Just for some general writing chat and support...

[BiglyBadgers]

I am about a third of the way through editing my stupidly long book (this'll teach me for writing epic fantasy) and need some chat!

I really loved the chat and support on the nano thread, but now novel writing month is long gone and I am alone! There must be other people out there bumbling along needing a friend to chat to...surely....I can provide coffee, cake and excellent free WiFi

The point is that it is not about what the author consciously decided to put in or meant by certain things. It is about how the work expresses social or cultural norms or challenges these norms. So yes, I would fail a student if they just parroted what the author said, because that has very little to do with it. Do you think if you asked all the authors who write derogatory female characters whether they meant to do so they would say that was their aim? Of course they wouldn't, but it doesn't make the character any less offensive, nor does it stop it expressing an important aspect of our culture.

The fact the author did not consciously use something that creates a particular impression in the reader just makes it even more interesting and relevent because it demonstrates the unconscious nature of our bias.

Interesting point Bigly.

Tipsy, I love the Detectorists, great story telling, characters and the land's connection with the past is something i would love to explore in my writing.

Ah but Bigly, you are making a sound and quantifiable point. That is certainly not the sort of thing I was taught see the tree example for what I mean. Endless discussion of things with no actual significance.

What the author says does have a lot to do with it though, that bit I a disagree with. If you don't know the intention then how can you assess whether it was on purpose / subconscious / representative of the time etc? Without all the facts you're still essentially making things up whilst I think the social norms point is a very interesting one, I would not take any criticism seriously that did not consider the author's background and their own voice.

I'm not going to get into an arguement about his to be honest. I studied literature and film theory and criticism past masters level to halfway through a PHD (and rather resent the implication that I was just studying and teaching nonsense all those years) so could certainly discuss all the wide variety of schools of critisicm including those that focus on the author and those that do not. Personally I have always been more interested in the reader than the author. The writer may mean one thing, but if everyone else who reads it takes away something else that is a far more relevent and interesting thing to explore.

Obviously I haven't read the tree story, but trees have huge symbolic and cultural meaning. If they had replace the tree with a climbing frame or a telegraph pole, or just not had it the story would undoubtedly had a different feel and readers would have experienced it in a different way.

Think about your own stories. When you are world building why does a character have a particular taste in furniture? Why do they wear certain clothes? Why are you placing it within a different landscape and what impact would it have if you changed that setting? Consider the last paragraph you wrote and why you put in a particular detail? You did it for a reason or it wouldn't be there, it would just be unimportant fluff.

I said you had a point Bigly but that I believe the author's view is also important. I am not criticising your subject as a whole, just relaying experiences. I was actively encouraged to make stuff up with no evidence and I didn't enjoy it, this doesn't mean I think ill of your subject I don't!

An example to explain what I mean about the author's view being important - I could discuss the contrast of jill valentine and rebecca chambers endlessly. One is a strong female lead for the time and one is not but they were both written by the same author in the same world. I could analyse what that means for the author's subconscious for hours. But without knowing that rebecca was forced into the story by the games company it is meaningless. This information adds a lot of depth and grounding, it turns my viewpoint from an internal struggle by the author to view women appropriately to a real world struggle between fair gender representation and cultural norms. The country of origin and audience it was intended for is also important as otherwise you are looking at it through the wrong lense.

Even if you are examining the readers surely it's interesting to contrast this with the intention? Acknowledging the facts doesn't mean you can't disagree with them or read past them. I was taught to examine the author's views and background for criticising technology papers and had assumed this was the norm.

And I never said you did not consider the context or author. In the tree example the child was failed because they only considered the authors view and claimed their there was no significance to the tree because the author said there isn't. It was absolutely correct for them to fail in this instance as the authors view (or what they chose to say) is not the be all and end all.

Most books will involve the influence of multiple people, films involve hundreds. Do I include the view of the costume assistant who had the idea of which flower to put in a characters hair? Whether the character was introduced by the author or the games Company is an interesting fact, but it doesn't change the significance of that character as a representation of a view of women within the industry as a whole. I could write a perfectly good essay on how this character represents a popular depiction of femininity without needing to mention that fact. It would not be made up nonsense.

Possibly you had a shit teacher, but there are a lot of misconceptions about what people are doing when they are studying literature. For the most part if it is examining a culture through the lense of literature.

at it is not about what the author consciously decided to put in or meant by certain things. It is about how the work expresses social or cultural norms or challenges these norms

That's a really interesting point. Out of interest, when you're writing do you think "I'll put this in because it has this hidden significance"? Or do you feel that as you write these bits will come out naturally?

I suppose it goes with what I used to say to dd1 when doing GCSE(who wasn't very good at analysing literature) was it doesn't matter what significance you put on it as long as you have a good justification for your answer. She didn't like this as she likes a right/wrong answer!

Death of the author innit?

Derrida and all that.

Personally I'm all for that shit. I know literally nothing about the actual lives or intentions of the authors I read. It's all in the text.

That's a really interesting point. Out of interest, when you're writing do you think "I'll put this in because it has this hidden significance"? Or do you feel that as you write these bits will come out naturally?

I think all writers add things because they have a cultural significance, you just might not be thinking that overtly when you choose to give your fem fatale a red dress or depict your character having an existential moment while staring at the endless sea. I tend to find when authors consciously try and add hidden meaning it comes out a bit forced. We are all a product of our culture and environment and the associations and assumptions associated with that will be in our work whether we like it or not. Marxist theorists would tell you that you are merely a conduit for the expression of the social conflict. Possibly a bit over the top, but it is true that we can't separate ourselves from it however much some authors may claim otherwise.

My main issue is that I tend to over analyse my own writing to the extent I worry about what could be read into my work too much leading to a certain amount of paralysis. I have had to learn not to analyse my writing and just accept that people will read what they read into it and that it fine. Saying that I am particularly conscious of the depiction of gender for example and am in the middle of rewriting a storyline because I am aware of the potential critical reading of the story and think it would be more interesting and justifiable to do it in a different way.

A beautiful and concise summary certain

I had a great teacher but a shit curriculum. I was taught incorrectly about science too I don't disagree with you. I think we're talking speculation vs justification and neither is discounting the other?

Witch, I put things in on purpose but I am sure stuff works it's way in without my say so too. Symbolism does fall in naturally without it being a conscious decision. I do try to review it and get as good a grasp on it as I can but I'm almost certainly not as good at it as I think I am.

Bigly, I would love your opinion on gender representation in my work. It's something I try to pay attention to but I'm never quite sure how it's coming across.

I find with gender it is really easy to slip into genre congestions without really noticing Queen. I have done it lots and then suddenly read it back and cringe. I have one character that is deliberately problematic and I agonise about getting her right a lot. She is awesome though, if challenging. Happy to have a read and give a view if you'd like a second pair of eyes.

I've always thought it interesting the way an author loses ownership of a work once it's out in the world. I don't mean legally but just that the book takes on different lives in different people's heads and no two people will have the same experience of it. That's probably an obvious point but I haven't studied English past GCSE so forgive the naivety. I do sometimes worry that as someone with a science degree I'm not qualified to write fiction. I know that's nonsense but I seem to like finding sticks to beat myself with.

Interesting you make the point about gender representation, bigly. It's something I worry about in my work especially writing stories heavily focused on romance. I don't want to write ditzy women who need rescuing by gruff moody men (for example). There are so many stereotypes and tropes that I tend to fall into, even as a feminist consciously trying to avoid them. And talking of world building etc earlier one of the reasons I find it hard is that I don't want to fall into lazy cultural appropriation. I just don't feel qualified to write about other cultures and races. Of course I'm just 'making stuff up' but it's all inspired by something.

There are lots of wonderful writers who are scientists Tippetty. Particularly in SF... obviously.

Yeah, race is another really tricky one at times as it is easy to slip into conventions without noticing even if we are aware and trying not to. I think the best you can do is try and be aware. Also if you have readers from different backgrounds they are more likely to pick up on things you might miss.

One thing I read that has made me read and write differently was someone pointing out how often a writer does not mention skin colour of a character unless they are not white. By doing this the writer implies white as the default and other skin colours as the exception. After reading this I have noticed it a lot in books and realised I have done it to without thinking!

I've decided that fight scenes and sex scenes have a lot in common. Both make me cringe internally as I write, they are really hard to pace well, you have to keep a close on on logistics or you end up with physically impossible feats occuring, and it is really, really easy to slip into cliche. I've just ended up with a rooftop chase complete with sword fight and fall to the death. What the hell am I doing FFS?

I have that problem with ghost tropes. They just work their way in there. When I was planning a previous novel I ended up audibly groaning in front of others as it dawned on me that the only way the story could reasonably progress was through a horrendous cliché

Did you go with it or rewrite Queen? I can't decide whether to embrace the rooftop fight in all its glory or delete the whole lot and try again.

That one I couldn't bear to write but I'll get to it one day with the ghost tropes, I've mostly been going with it and just trying not to over do it. If it still stands out as too cringey when it's finished I'll deal with it then. I figure clichés are clichés because they've worked for others, can't be all bad

If the reader cares about the character and it's not obvious what the outcome is going to be then the scene probably won't read like a cliche even if it is one. I haven't read them for a while but I remember The Lies of Locke Lamora having good action scenes. There always seemed like a high level of jeopardy for the main characters, even though you knew deep down they weren't really going to get killed off.

I keep getting stuck at the same point in my book. I'm about 45k words in, so it should be the midpoint, and on paper it fits the criteria for a midpoint, it just doesn't feel like a midpoint. And when I try to write the next scenes that it sets up they feel artificial. This is my fifth attempt to write it .

That is a nice way of looking at it Queen and I shall be quoting your arguement to anyone who mentions it.

I have gone with it for now and will see how it feels at a later reading.

Are you sure the scenes you are trying to set up are, well, right tippety? Maybe there is something about them that doesn't quite fit the characters or situation, or the set up is not feeling real. Part of the reason I have written this fight scene was because I needed a character to go to a place where he knew he was going to end up in serious trouble. My previous set up was just bugging me and the whole thing felt unrealistic. It took me a while to realise it just wasn't a good enough reason for him to be there. During the fight I now have him getting injured and then he can be dragged to the place against his will, which makes far more sense for the following scenes.

I think I'm being too cagey about the big reveal that forms the book's crisis. I think I need to point my protagonist more directly at it rather than tip toeing. And make more use of the scene I've just written to clear the path.... So yeah, I'll just go and do that then...

Problem solved! Go Tippety!

No luck. Spent two hours bashing my head against the wall and deleted everything. Normally I'd just write a placeholder and skip ahead but I can't because this determines what happens next.

That sounds pretty frustrating Tippety.

Have you tried spending a few days doing something completely different. Sometimes a new perspective pops into my head if I walk away and give it a bit of space. This is all I have...the only other suggestion I can think of is more cake

This is the point I'd step back and start planning by writing down point A and point B and everything that needs to happen in between. It sounds like you might not be sure of what point B is yet though?

Do you non planners write without knowing how the scene will end? I've noticed I always have a fixed point in mind and can't write until I know what it is