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Craicnet

Is the Irish/Northern Irish social class system the same as UK?

182 replies

merrymaryquitecontrary · 13/09/2024 17:41

Visited Ireland recently and was wondering if there is the same obsession with class as UK? If so, what would the signifiers be? Do people recoil in horror if you use a certain word instead of another 'posher' word? Eg red sauce vs ketchup in the UK. There's no point in this thread other than me just wondering.

OP posts:
CremeEggThief · 15/09/2024 15:42

Definitely not to the same extent and up to the 90s anyway!

In my area, the kids of doctors/dentists associated with kids who didn't bother going to school that much.

MinorTom · 15/09/2024 15:56

BobbyBiscuits · 15/09/2024 15:42

I'm second generation Irish. My mum always thought the class system in Ireland was much worse. Like everyone was such a snob.
It was a bit religion based initially, but then I think money and education played a big part. Like oh, your dad is a builder- lower. Oh, your dad's an accountant- higher.
She left the country in the 60s, but when she visits there still seems a bit of small town style prejudice. Despite living in the capital.

I think this is a very good point, growing up the class system was largely based on employments status. Unemployed, labourer/factory/small farmer, trades / professionals/larger farmers etc.

That was blown out of the water during the Celtic Tiger when the trades became the multimillionaires and soon it just came down to weath = status.

BobbyBiscuits · 15/09/2024 16:06

@MinorTom yes, that whole property boom played a big part I think in the perception of 'class'. Money became more important.
When my mum grew up her dad's family were builders from cork, but her mum's family were teachers or low level bankers who had distant English relatives. Which presumably as protestants they thought seemed admirable?
Gawd knows but I'd say their class system was more complex than in UK. From what she tells me.

BarbaraHoward · 15/09/2024 17:41

eggandonion · 15/09/2024 13:43

I think Dyson of the Electrics has just bought a nice estate on the Blackwater.
I am middle class NI and say ketchup. My dh from a farm in NI doesn't approve of bottled sauce. But loves brown vinegar.
We live in south Munster but as blow ins had no old school ties so kids went to local community schools. Our northern relatives couldn't cope with the idea of no eleven plus and no school blazers.
The ideas that people have of the other side of the border are interesting!

I also crossed the border but the other way, and I'm horrified that my DC will have the blazers and the 11+. Grin

eggandonion · 15/09/2024 17:56

When we were in the north our kids were fascinated by prep school boys in blazers and shorts. Also the number of churches on Sunday, especially gospel halls with ladies in hats going in.
But appreciated the protestant tray bakes😀
There are so many divisions in schools...some single sex, some grammar schools, some excellent secondary schools, some schools in really deprived areas...and the religious divide. What school did you go to is a very complex way of working out your background.
My ds works for a big 4 accountancy firm in Dublin. Young staff are mostly ucd graduates living at home who know each other from rugby and hockey. Partly because young staff from elsewhere find it hard to live on what a grad scheme person earns. When he was on the grad scheme they couldn't work him out...

Rainbowbrite5 · 15/09/2024 18:44

I think growing up there was the what was known as being from a "respectable" family or a "good family"...
Usually the children of the local doctors, bank managers, solicitors, accountants etc. They were also given obvious preferential treatment in school & treated with much more respect than us mere mortals!

Abhannmor · 15/09/2024 20:36

A lot of posters are confusing snobbery, religious bigotry etc with a formal Class System.
At the risk of a derail %
: how appropriate that Dyson of Brexit fame is buying a 'nice estate' on the Munster Blackwater. He campaigned to take Britain out of the EU. Then moved his factory to the Far East. Nothing if not consistent, this great patriot.

CherryValley5 · 15/09/2024 20:45

Grammar schooling absolutely underpins the NI social class system - that is a fact. People tend to stay in their school friendship group throughout life, therefore social mobility is limited at a young age.

eggandonion · 15/09/2024 21:29

I went to a Belfast grammar school and I am on the whatsapp group for our year. I agree that a lot of people I was at school with are still living within a 20 mile radius of the old school and seem to constantly have lunch with each other.
Didn't Dyson move all his manufacturing out of the UK years before brexit? I wonder if the Devonshires will invite him to Lismore!

Alalalalalongalalalalalonglonglilong · 15/09/2024 22:38

It's here but so subtle it's almost impossible to detect and it's mostly seen in accents and what people spend their money on. The boom years flipped everything on its head where trades people or more WC jobs often earned more than more traditional MC jobs.

Most people are socially mobile in the last 2 generations and I think there is more acceptance across the classes. I think that comes from almost everyone being piss poor at some point. No one has really wealthy great great grandparents for example, none I know anyhow. My parents in the 90s were obsessed with education and it was a real thing to say your kids went to university. Many of my friends say the same yet none of us grew up with money, only notions. I think the next generation with the advantage of education are more open minded and would support a child wanting to work in a trade or pursuing their interests without trying to impress the neighbours.

Dh and I straddle the spectrum. His family were WC and he is in a well paid profession but works in a small company where there is old money. He is (literally) the only employee at his level who does not have a summer home or a boat. My family were more MC but I now work in a low paying caring sector where many are from WC low income backgrounds. Dh and I talk about this a lot, the norms of our work places differ so much. Funnily enough neither of us ever felt we were different in either place and people have been respectful of our backgrounds.

Alalalalalongalalalalalonglonglilong · 15/09/2024 22:42

If in doubt ask a Nun!! Back in the 80s they always were kissing up to the girls from 'respectable' families while dismissing the WC girls and sneering at council estate kids. They had it all worked out.

eggandonion · 15/09/2024 23:00

When I worked in England in the eighties I lived very near a private convent school. I was friendly with two nuns from Ulster...one was from Cavan.
Sister Francesca was a teaching nun, she really looked down on Sister Angela who ran the kitchen. Sister Angela called Sister Francesca Sister Fanny behind her back.
I used to get invited to convent tea. And me a protestant.
My Catholic mil couldn't understand any of this...she lives on the farm she grew up on.

Betterthanitseems · 16/09/2024 04:29

In donegal there's a bit of a class system based on religion,many people from a protestant background attended small church primary schools with like 10 in the entire school then the private school in raphoe? As they weren't allowed to mix with 'townies" or catholics or both lol. I now work with some of these and there were people who had never been in a public play park or soft play...

DesigningWoman · 16/09/2024 11:26

eggandonion · 15/09/2024 23:00

When I worked in England in the eighties I lived very near a private convent school. I was friendly with two nuns from Ulster...one was from Cavan.
Sister Francesca was a teaching nun, she really looked down on Sister Angela who ran the kitchen. Sister Angela called Sister Francesca Sister Fanny behind her back.
I used to get invited to convent tea. And me a protestant.
My Catholic mil couldn't understand any of this...she lives on the farm she grew up on.

I think that’s mostly just the ‘class system’ that was built into religious orders in the past though — if you brought a dowry when you were entered you were a ‘choir nun’ (taught, nursed etc), and if you didn’t, you were a ‘lay nun’ who worked in the kitchen, worked in the kitchen garden, and did other menial tasks.

Obviously, the fact of the dowry meant that it replicated class distinctions outside the convent, to an extent, so the more prosperous girls became the ‘higher’ class of nun. All I’m saying is it wasn’t unique to Ireland. It’s described in detail in Kathryn Hulme’s The Nun’s Story (fiction, but based on the experiences of a real Belgian nun who entered her nursing/teaching order between the wars), and I’ve seen it in practice in French convents too.

eggandonion · 16/09/2024 12:10

It was a Loretta convent school...I had to look that up. They used to invite us to plays and concerts which were very good.
We had a couple of friends who were similarly in a 'mixed relationship ' who also had tame nuns. Theirs ran a nursing home. They were given a supply of home made jam.
I went to school with the lad in the other couple. It was as if being emigrants from Ireland trumped all the other class and social distinctions!

DesigningWoman · 16/09/2024 12:19

eggandonion · 16/09/2024 12:10

It was a Loretta convent school...I had to look that up. They used to invite us to plays and concerts which were very good.
We had a couple of friends who were similarly in a 'mixed relationship ' who also had tame nuns. Theirs ran a nursing home. They were given a supply of home made jam.
I went to school with the lad in the other couple. It was as if being emigrants from Ireland trumped all the other class and social distinctions!

The lay nun, Sr Anne, who did the cooking in the convent attached to my primary school, was easily the nicest of all the nuns. Would provide emergency eggs or flour if you’d forgotten or broken your ingredients for cookery lessons, and was known to provide pats and cups of tea to upset girls at lunch (we had to go over and collect the teaching nuns’ lunches). Whereas several of the others, including a loon I had for three consecutive years who was obsessed with the last secret of Fatima and the end of the world, should have been kept away from children…

stanleypops66 · 16/09/2024 12:31

I grew up in a very WC area of NI. Myself and siblings all went to grammar school and now have 'typical' MC professions- doctor, solicitor, accountant, teacher. My siblings still live within a mile of where we grew up despite being able to afford to move to BT9 or the likes. They just don't want to.

I moved to SE England for uni and then lived there for 15years. The professionals that I mixed with were very MC, Oxbridge and private school educated and did have all the middle class signifiers - RP accent, private school, south of France holidays, skiing etc. what I noticed when I moved back to NI is how much more down to earth and humble people are (within the same profession). Much less bragging about their career, money or holidays and lots of people from WC backgrounds doing the jobs.

LiveOutLoudRose · 16/09/2024 12:32

@Soonenough my Father is Irish, but I was born and brought up in the UK. My Father is from a very poor working-class family, but he came over to the UK for university and did very well himself. My Mother is from a far more middle-class background. Neither set of family were happy they married - but they still did - and they mellowed when us children arrived.

One of the Irish traditions that has remained in our house is that you "cover your plate at a wedding".

My Irish Aunties were horrified after my wedding about the gifts given by some of "English" guests. I grew up with my best friend, so her parents, sister, and boyfriend came to the wedding (they were professionals, so there were no particular money worries). The gift from all of them was a creme brulee set - cost about £20.

15 years later they still ask how "the cheap English girl is doing".

Sneezeguard · 16/09/2024 12:57

LiveOutLoudRose · 16/09/2024 12:32

@Soonenough my Father is Irish, but I was born and brought up in the UK. My Father is from a very poor working-class family, but he came over to the UK for university and did very well himself. My Mother is from a far more middle-class background. Neither set of family were happy they married - but they still did - and they mellowed when us children arrived.

One of the Irish traditions that has remained in our house is that you "cover your plate at a wedding".

My Irish Aunties were horrified after my wedding about the gifts given by some of "English" guests. I grew up with my best friend, so her parents, sister, and boyfriend came to the wedding (they were professionals, so there were no particular money worries). The gift from all of them was a creme brulee set - cost about £20.

15 years later they still ask how "the cheap English girl is doing".

I've literally only ever heard that expression used in England, but yes, wedding presents in Ireland are generally more lavish. (I very much liked, when living in England, smaller and more modest weddings, and the 'self-catering in a village hall' type of reception, which doesn't happen much or at all in Ireland...)

I think there's an ingrained horror of looking stingy, particularly in food or hospitality, in Irish society which I assume is a hangover from widespread poverty in the fairly recent past. My mother massively over-caters for anything she's hosting, and because she, like many of her generation, thinks it's rude to accept an offer of food or drink first time, she believes everyone else operates according to similar 'rules' and overrides perfectly sincere 'No, thanks'. She once caused enormous confusion when she decided that visiting US cousins, calling in their way to the airport to say goodbye, were only 'being polite' when they said they would already have eaten (flight was about 4 in the afternoon), and had produced a three-course meal when they'd planned a ten-minute flyby.

She and my father were genuinely shocked that our 'posh' English relatives, having agreed to pick them up at Heathrow and drop them to the disabled, non-driving family member they were visiting, pulled into a layby somewhere and unpacked a flask of tea and sandwiches. To them, that was unbelievably miserly and incompatible with people who wore driving gloves (!) and played golf.

eggandonion · 16/09/2024 13:39

The worst wedding we were ever at was a church hall with no salad sandwiches for vegetarian guests. And a poem about cheques for the honeymoon.
We had to take our kids to England by ferry and then have our holidays to make it worthwhile .
Covering a plate with no food on it indeed.
What's a wedding reception without 3 types of potato, chips at midnight and a fight? Well worth a lavish envelope of cash!

Soonenough · 16/09/2024 16:06

I think the difference between Irish and English weddings would be a whole other thread ! Not wrong either way but very very different. 😅

SeulementUneFois · 16/09/2024 16:27

I'm shocked that noone has mentioned Ross O'Carroll Kelly yet! As a foreigner from distant Europe it gave me (and my culchie husband from the smallest farm) the best insight into SoCoDo 😁.

I've actually been living there for the last couple of years and it's uncannily true ..and I've interacted very closely with offspring in the local private schools / now in UCD BComm.

(It's been a crash course on how Robespierre/ Lenin / etc happened. 😂...the entitlement is unbelievable...)

I do believe tho that's pretty unique in ROI. The rest of the people are sound.

Sneezeguard · 16/09/2024 16:35

SeulementUneFois · 16/09/2024 16:27

I'm shocked that noone has mentioned Ross O'Carroll Kelly yet! As a foreigner from distant Europe it gave me (and my culchie husband from the smallest farm) the best insight into SoCoDo 😁.

I've actually been living there for the last couple of years and it's uncannily true ..and I've interacted very closely with offspring in the local private schools / now in UCD BComm.

(It's been a crash course on how Robespierre/ Lenin / etc happened. 😂...the entitlement is unbelievable...)

I do believe tho that's pretty unique in ROI. The rest of the people are sound.

I'll be honest, South County Dublin is considerably more foreign to me than all of the five foreign countries I've lived in for extended periods. An English friend of mine got a job at TCD and moved there in 2019, and kept asking me questions about her new social environment, and I had to say 'Sorry, that's not the Ireland I live in!'

BarbaraHoward · 16/09/2024 16:45

SeulementUneFois · 16/09/2024 16:27

I'm shocked that noone has mentioned Ross O'Carroll Kelly yet! As a foreigner from distant Europe it gave me (and my culchie husband from the smallest farm) the best insight into SoCoDo 😁.

I've actually been living there for the last couple of years and it's uncannily true ..and I've interacted very closely with offspring in the local private schools / now in UCD BComm.

(It's been a crash course on how Robespierre/ Lenin / etc happened. 😂...the entitlement is unbelievable...)

I do believe tho that's pretty unique in ROI. The rest of the people are sound.

Eh, we're not all entitled!!

SeulementUneFois · 16/09/2024 17:00

BarbaraHoward · 16/09/2024 16:45

Eh, we're not all entitled!!

@BarbaraHoward I was referring to a very specific segment of the population....as depicted in the RO'CK books... SoCoDo Private school /Ski trip TY >> UCD BComm (thank god for the remaining meritocracy of the leaving) -->> --spent in D2 (the nightclub), and the Dalkey Duck.
Not a part time / summer job ever to be seen despite 10 hours of contact time ...(Unlike the culchie kids who might have a summer job in a chicken factory...as my ex did in his time..). Expecting to live off Daddy for the foreseeable, and actually looking down on normal people with jobs. (Actually looking down on Daddy a bit as well for being a mug and having to work.)
Can add more details but don't want to derail the thread - I'm sure you recognise some characters.