Is the Irish/Northern Irish social class system the same as UK?

[merrymaryquitecontrary]

Visited Ireland recently and was wondering if there is the same obsession with class as UK? If so, what would the signifiers be? Do people recoil in horror if you use a certain word instead of another 'posher' word? Eg red sauce vs ketchup in the UK. There's no point in this thread other than me just wondering.

Northern Ireland is in the U.K.

And it's a totally different country. Like Scotland is. And Wales is.

And the other big social difference between Ireland and England is a completely different attitude to emigration.

^

Can you explain what you mean? The English don't like emigration?

Definitely not true. Some of the most desirable addresses are in East Belfast. Some gorgeous old, leafy neighbourhoods in Ballyhackamore (the famous Cyprus Avenue for example!), Stormont etc with increasingly Malone Road pricing.

6 counties of Ireland are still governed by UK. The rest are not. Donegal is in the North but wasn't occupied.

Posted too soon. @merrymaryquitecontrary there's a class difference for sure. Mainly bourne from sectarianism and bigotry.

Donegal is in the north and in Ulster but it's not in the North (which is the six counties).

Not my quote, but yes there's obviously a huge history in Ireland of emigration so I think even now it's viewed as a very normal thing to do if you can't get a job at home. My sister graduated into the financial crisis and literally all of her friendship group emigrated.

The lack of a big aristocracy and the dire economic situation of NI means there's an upper strata of extreme wealth missing.

The systems are set up along sectarian rather than class lines (eg schools) though this has changed / is changing. The country had a selective grammar / secondary school system until relatively recently which still partly operates. There are very few private schools since mc families tutor to grammars. Education is taken much more seriously in NI overall imho.

I think class has come out loads on recent years though consumption. People are 'doing well' if they've a well decorated house in the right area, nice car and holidays etc. To me this has relaxed church standing 'respectability'as the class marker, which would have been more my Granny's concern.

Apologies for quoting the OP but what is the class marker of red sauce/ketchup on the UK? The term red sauce was used a lot when I was growing up in Scotland and I've heard Northern Irish people use it but I'm not sure I've ever heard it said in England, regardless of someone's class.

Someone on the class thread used the red sauce/ketchup as an example of a class identifier. I don't use either (tomato sauce) so I've no idea which one is meant to be wc or mc. I assume that poster was in England.

My sister (Belfast) has the piss taken out of her in a chip shop as a child when she asked for tomato sauce. The servers there all said red sauce. So I'd say tomato sauce - middle class, red sauce - wc.

Some interesting points here re Ireland and lacking a native upper class, and the influence of the church.

Also agree Malone Road always cited when it's really north down that's wealthier!

So would ketchup be more upper than red sauce?

I think having a true ‘class system’ relies on having an aristocracy type level at the top. There is the odd lord or lady of the manor type installed in a stately home style set up throughout ROI / the North, but not enough to count.

So I don’t think a class system exists in either part of the island.

What does exist is a thousand societal quirks and of course there is aspiration, discrimination and judgment along myriad factors and markers of your past and current wealth, occupation, education, social circle. These vary wildly not just between the two sides of the border but from one province or even county to the next. Even within counties, for example North Down and South Down are different beasts. And in the cities, particularly Belfast - any affluent area will sit pretty much side by side with a socio-economically challenged community (East Belfast and Malone have been juxtaposed in this thread but that’s a bit clumsy - Malone / Sandy Row (both in South Belfast) and Ballyhackamore / Connswater (both in East) illustrate the point more neatly).

The role of religion is probably totally phased out in traditional church communities (Catholic and older Protestant churches) and of course also in the growing non religious / non Christian parts of society but it is a whole other matter with the evangelicals.

What I do think is hugely different from England is that humility is absolutely key. People don’t begrudge success but absolutely take a dim view of ‘notions’ (nebulous concept but for these purposes it’s the idea of getting above your station). This applies across all counties I think and is another reason why basically we don’t have a class system (but again emphasising this doesn’t mean people aren’t judging each other!).

I went to a very old, very esteemed university in England with a massive public school contingent, and it was an eye opener in terms of the English upper class. I had no idea. They do inhabit a totally different world. I don’t think there’s a divided off segment of society like that in any part of Ireland, really.

A lot of Big Houses were indeed burned in the war of independence. But quite often the land is still owned by English / Anglo Irish Ascendancy families.
Blarney is almost the quintessentially Irish place , especially to tourists who come to kiss the famous stone. Yet the castle and lands - formerly the domain of the McCarthy clan - is owned by the Colthurst family. George 'Austerity' Osborne owns estates in Tipperary. You can't fish on the lower Blackwater without paying the Duke of Devonshire and so on. They are still in situ , but nobody defers to them. They are out of the equation.
Its true what PPs say about the schools too. They are 3 multimillionaires in our town and their kids attended the same primary and Community school as everyone else. I'm in a rural area however. In the towns and cities social apartheid is creeping in. Developers try to keep social housing away from their hideous new estates. But....we've a long way to go in establishing a Class System like England's. About 800 years should do it 😉

Yes, but my point is no one thinks the Cavendishes or George Osbourne are Irish, or that they constitute an Irish upper class. The Colthursts I would regard as an unfortunate anachronism, but I’m no keener on the remnants of the Hiberno-Norman aristocracy, like the Knights of Kerry/Glin (though t think the latter has died out because Dominic West’s wife isn’t a boy).

I feel like a lot of middle class Irish people like to think there's no class system. I have a working class Dublin accent, a lot of assumptions are made.

I don’t think that’s a class system though…it’s just snobbery.

Travellers face loads of discrimination too. How does that fit into a classless society?

I do think Dublin especially, and to a lesser extent the other cities perhaps, are more socially stratified than rural Ireland is. There's segregation in Dublin in the schools - by choice I mean, attending the 'right' school is important. There are also 3 private schools ( at second level) in Cork city, not sure about Galway and Limerick etc.

In much of the country you attend the local schools regardless of parents wealth/education. That makes a difference.

I think Dyson of the Electrics has just bought a nice estate on the Blackwater.
I am middle class NI and say ketchup. My dh from a farm in NI doesn't approve of bottled sauce. But loves brown vinegar.
We live in south Munster but as blow ins had no old school ties so kids went to local community schools. Our northern relatives couldn't cope with the idea of no eleven plus and no school blazers.
The ideas that people have of the other side of the border are interesting!

Or GB.
In fact NI + GB = UK 😄

But snobbery is a side effect of the class system. @loveisanopensore has an accent that ‘places’ her in class terms, and experiences snobbery from people who think that sets her ‘below’ them in the class system.

I have a WC regional accent myself, which ‘places’ me, although I’m prosperous and work in a traditionally MC profession. A friend who is an academic and has a strong WC west of Ireland accent has had unpleasant comments about it in anonymous student feedback questionnaires, for instance. From Irish students — foreign students will usually not ‘hear’ the difference, as with some Americans who can’t hear the difference between Hugh Grant and Danny Dyer.😀

And absolutely to Traveller discrimination. I went to primary school near a halting site in the 70s and early 80s, and much of the time the Traveller girls were taught out in a prefab, not in classes with the rest of us. And I was perfectly well aware, aged eight, though I had no vocabulary for social class, that although my family was among the poorest in the school, we still ‘outranked’ the Traveller kids.

He did — Ballynatray.

There is a right of way to a ruin at the edge of that property I think. It was only a rumour that he was the new owner when we went for a walk there.
There was a group of Baptists doing a total immersion baptism in the river.
I hope he doesn't block the walk.
Lissadell is lovely but only open a small part of the year.

I'm second generation Irish. My mum always thought the class system in Ireland was much worse. Like everyone was such a snob.
It was a bit religion based initially, but then I think money and education played a big part. Like oh, your dad is a builder- lower. Oh, your dad's an accountant- higher.
She left the country in the 60s, but when she visits there still seems a bit of small town style prejudice. Despite living in the capital.