Self ID in Ireland was 'sunk in by the back door'

[ArabellaScott]

Hello, Craicnet!

Thought this might be of interest:

Two Irish civil servants discussing trans issues, hosted by cross-governmental Proud to Work for Ireland network of LGBT+ staff networks.

From around 49 minutes:

'We were a world leader with, um, with our gender recognition bill in 2015, and uh, it it was just amazing to have self ID, and you see the the hassle that's been
caused and the uproar in in the UK when Scotland and now Wales both want to
introduce self ID, and the and the, um, Westminster government won't won't allow it.

They're taking it to to the supreme court there - it was almost a nonissue here, it was a non-issue here, although I suppose, I suppose one of the things was there was such a such publicity around the whole,marriage equality campaign that in a way we snuck that in by the back door [laughs]'.

Thanks for that @MarieDeGournay Yes, I think the capturing started well before 2015 unfortunately.

Thanks, Marie. Worth gathering all of this together because as it all starts to unravel it will be instructive to see how it happened.

I think the first rumblings about trans issues in the Oireachtas were around 2010, some kind of group set up... More to follow when the humour is on me
Or if somebody else gets there first, be my guest!

I think it was in 2007, and on the back of EU law (which trumps Irish law)

I should read up more on it myself!

Thanks Marie for your information on this very interesting and informative, appreciate you taking the time to look this up.

Right, I've done some more trawling, so get comfy, it's long!

There was a Seanad debate on the Gender Recognition Bill 2014 2nd Stage.
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/2015-01-21/15/?highlight%5B0%5D=gender&highlight%5B1%5D=gender&highlight%5B2%5D=gender&highlight%5B3%5D=gender&highlight%5B4%5D=gender&highlight%5B5%5D=gender&highlight%5B6%5D=gender&highlight%5B7%5D=gender

The bill was introduced by the then minister for Social Protection, Joan Burton (Lab)
She laid out the content of the bill in huuuuge detail. I skimmed.
The speakers were all delighted about the bill, except it didn't go far enough.
The usual suspects: medicalisation, single status/divorce, and will somebody please think of the under 16s.
The speakers were (all senators)
Averil Power FF 'too conservatively drafted - med/divorce/children?

Hildegarde Naughton FG same but also welcomed 'decision to remove sports clause', which is worth following up. Pointed out it's not medical transition.

Katherine Zappone Ind - same complaint about med/divorce and under 16s
'These are our most vulnerable people' ' to be clear, she meant that they therefore should be allowed change gender legally.

Ivana Bacik Lab usual suspects + what about intersex and NB
Only mention of women so far , women experience discrimination and know that 'gender does matter in so many ways'. But no less enthusiastic about GR.

David Norris Ind. Quite low-key. Ireland too long in contravention of European law. Usual med/divorce/u16. Interestingly highlighted possible future problems with school toilets.

Mary M White FF 'FF supports....etc'

Aideen Hayden Lab. Quoted extensively words of transgender man Sam Blanckensee and TENI stats on suicide. Cites having to use 'wrong' school toilets 'This can be one of the scariest and hurtful things you can be told to do.' and wrong pronouns.

Jillian van Turnhout Ind. Same complaints, enthuses about the Maltese GR legislation.

Finally
Gerard P. Craughwell Ind. 'failure to act sooner... collective shame...basic human right.. formal apology needed from Taoisesch...'
End of debate.

More on Sen Craughwell later, or if you can't contain your curiosity, you can Google him to see what he said about the subject more recently😏

Thanks for this @MarieDeGournay.

Thanks for that MarieDeGournay. I just had a quick look at Senator Craughwell's twitter and he seems to have backpeddled massively in relation to gender issues (which is a relief), but it makes me wonder what the fuck they all thought this was about in the first place.

Did they really not read it properly, or think through the consequences?

“We passed the Gender Recognition Bill. I fully supported it. I never expected to be handed a sheet defining some 58 genders.” Gerard Craughwell in 2023!
Well at least he admitted that he fully supported it. He seems mostly bothered by the numbers not the principle!

It has been very interesting to see the blanket acceptance of 'gender' without any effort to define it. And it's obvious that the zeitgeist of 'progressiveness' and casting off old prejudices, e.g. the Marriage Equality campaign, took over the minds of TDs and Senators and cancelled out whatever bit of critical analysis they originally had. [cynics may add 'if they every had any in the first place']
And though I'm mostly an admirer of what the EEC/European Union has achieved in post-war Europe, there's no getting away from the fact that we were completely snookered by European law on the gender recognition topic..

I'll return to this next time I feel like it.. I'd like to find evidence that somebody, anybody in the Oireachtas spoke up against it at the time.

https://gript.ie/into-conference-hears-calls-from-delegates-to-disaffiliate-from-nwci/?fbclid=IwAR3JxFzhVctIVn3Qt3e7hyPK232O9AG0lPdJUMwk3X82m2Xh8BZBySFEsvw

Well done to these teachers speaking out against the National Women's Council

Latest episode of my trawl through Oireachtas debates about trans/gender ID!
There was a Joint Committee on Health and Children meeting on 4 July 2013, chaired by Sen Jerry Buttimer.
First guest speaker: Ms (sic) Vanessa Lacey, Health and Ed officer, TENI.

'Was identified as male at birth' but gender ID was always female.(married two women along the way).
G ID is 'deeply rooted feeling of being male or female'.
1% of pop. has some gender variance.
''78% of trans people have seriously considered taking their own lives'.

HEALTH
Criticised lack of access to appropriate medical care, only St Columcilles.
160 people receiving hormone therapy, tripled since 2006.
Trans Health Group incl HSE, TENI, GLEN etc set up 2011.
Events including WPATH in 2013.

CHILDREN
Increasing number of children 'coming out as transgender'.
'Treatment with hormone blockers and cross-sex hormones can substantially relieve neg symptoms'
'If lucky they are referred to the Tavistock clinic.'
Quoted a suicidal girl who was 'saved' and referred to Tavi.
'The family's primary focus is to keep the child alive until the age of 16 when they can access med treatment as an adult'
Treatment for children ' often seen as controversial' but
'research to date..suggest... treatments and procedures are safe, hormone blockers are reversible....patient does not suffer further dysphoria'.
'Clear preliminary data from EU and US that young people have positive mental health outcomes'

EDUCATION
'...is the key'
'TENI engaging with educators to develop educational tools' re gender ID.
Eg 'age appropriate books', to be available that year.
Including meeting at St Pats training college.
'Education is the future'.
End of presentation.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_health_and_children/2013-07-04/3/

I'm doing all this trawling because I wanted to know how we got here in terms of trans ideology having such a hold. The more I read, the more I see how and why.
The role of TENI in shaping attitudes in medicine and politics is well known, but this 2013 Joint Committee shows in detail the nuts and bolts of how they did that shaping.

Nobody on the committee challenged the TENI reps. Everything they said was accepted as fact, and as basis for legislation and health care planning.
Two or three committee members could be interpreted as being brief, bland and a bit neutral, so they may have had some reservations, ,but didn't say anything negative or even questioning.

There were a few statements that were breathtakingly revealing, eg the HSE rep saying "a very capable organisation like TENI is an obvious partnership for us (HSE) because we are, relatively speaking, clueless in regard to the issues"

I could do a v brief synopsis outlining who said what at this committee, as I did for the Dáil debate - or am I taking up too much space here?

Social media, the face it's been allowed into the schools, autism organisations linking trans & autism.. Also the trans brigade jumping on the lgb bandwagon..
First things first TENI & other organisations should stay out of schools & education. Schools need to go back to being about academics, as it is the government are watering down the curriculum, education is worsening. All this crap needs to be left at the school gates. Teachers & classmates should be under no obligation to accept a girl is a boy when it is scientifically impossible!

I could do a v brief synopsis outlining who said what at this committee, as I did for the Dáil debate - or am I taking up too much space here?

Not at all MarieDeGournay, thanks so much for your efforts.

All the references and history are so very useful, Marie. Thank you.

I'll add the whole Stephen Nolan investigates series on STonewall.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/p09yjmph

Thank you very much @MarieDeGournay for taking this time on our behalf.
Thank you for that link too @ArabellaScott, looks interesting.

TENI is described as Ireland's Stonewall, but according to some, worse.

There's quite a lot about TENI on Mumsnet.

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/irelands-stonewall-is-crumbling

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-fetishists-and-ideologues-who

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4266197-Anyone-know-much-about-TENI

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/y8u7xy/hse_suspends_transgender_equality_network_funding/

https://www.theburkean.ie/articles/2021/07/29/tenis-troubles-irelands-largest-trans-ngo-has-funding-suspended-over-accounting-irregularities

Thanks all, I'll plough ahead then☺
Thanks ArabellaS for the links re TENI. Even if they're losing impact, they've left a lasting and damaging mark, haven't they?
It's so interesting to see legislators, and.healthcare professionals, accepting everything TENI says as 100% solid evidence.
So far in my reading, no TD or senator has stood up and said 'Hang on..'

Thanks everyone for digging up so much - I feel like if a canvasser comes to the door for the next election, I'll be well equipped to ask proper questions....I sort of want to see them squirm actually - why the fuck didn't they do their due diligence as lawmakers? That is a major component of their job (or what it is supposed to be).
From the sounds of it MarieDeGournay, none of them really pushed back on anything, they just bought the whole 'most victimised ever' narrative and patted themselves on the back at how kind they were all being....it's so disappointing.
I remember hearing Laoise from the Countess speaking about TENI and saying they pretty much had the most consultation meetings with various government departments over the last few years of any lobby group.

Honestly, I think we need to be wary of assuming that this is crumbling at all....

The general public may well be waking up to what has gone on (finally), but I have a feeling, vested interest groups like TENI, and indeed some politicians (maybe with trans family members) who are pushing this for their own reasons will hang on for dear life and try to scupper any rollback of Self ID law.
They will thrash around and lash out in desperation...it's going to take years to get our legal definitions back.

Agree, there are certain groups & politicians who want to normalise transgenderism & won't accept there is nothing normal about pumping children fill of life altering, irreversible hormonal treatment & butchering genetiles... All the while expecting the general public to stand back, accept, no debate...

https://gript.ie/he-him-fine-gael-tds-criticised-for-gender-pronouns-in-bio/?fbclid=IwAR3QjHCRAnyO23rE7BjUqk1u1rY9jcLD6lb4iiDqTO6QS-xO4CUgWrQu5vQ

What an eejit, it's obvious he's a he without stating his fecking pronouns! I agree with this article, it is trying to normalise this whole gender rubbish....

There must have been little to no lobby against it, if politicians' were unanimously in favour of it.

Yes, and also that if it's presented to them as a human rights issue then they don't want to be seen as the bad guy for questioning it. I suppose it's one of the reasons that many of us don't speak up in our workplaces or whatever, it's an unpopular thing to do.
I just thought (hoped) that when politicians are making new laws that they would have the forethought to research it and consider far reaching implications. Surely that is part of the process, but they seem too lazy to do that. It makes me not trust their judgement about so many things...

Also, I know it's unfair of me, but I do judge female politicians who waved this through more harshly - they know well that women are discriminated against because of our biology and may well have experienced this themselves. There has to be so much cognitive dissonance going on to ignore this.

continuation of Joint Cttee July 2013, follows on from opening presentation by Vanessa Lacy of TENI [in earlier post]
Joint Committee on Health and Children debate -
Thursday, 4 Jul 2013 Transgender Health Issues:

guests Ms Vanessa Lacy, Mr. Broden Giambrone, Dr. Philip Crowley, Ms Caoimhe Gleeson and Ms Louise Mullen

Vanessa Lacy's submission in previous post. Next speaker was also from TENI

Mr [sic] BRODEN GIAMBRONE, CEO TENI
Similar to VL, stressed legal gender recognition, discrimination, 'high rates of violence' against trans people.
Rates of suicide and suicidality 'off the charts'.
Intersex not sufficiently recognised - ' 3 births in 100 are intersex-affected'.
Criticised medicalisation, praised Argentinian gender laws. Gender ID recognition 'without surgical procedures, hormone therapy or any other psychological or medical treatments'
[Again, gender ID recognition as female is for 'entire' biological males with feelings..]
WPATH 'a professional body of over 650 physicians ad MH professionals.
HSE supports their position.

DR PHILIP CROWLEY HSE
'working in partnership with TENI'. Backed up everything TENI speakers said.
'Working closely' with TENI to draw up training resources.

BILLY KELLEHER FF
Positive response to TENI. .Remembered a time when people openly campaigned against provision of ..therapy and surgical procedures to those of gender variance' - first suggestion of any negative reactions to trans issues.

'1% of pop. experience transgender variance' - [even TENI didn't claim that! VL said that 'It is estimated that 1% of the population experience some form of gender variance', not transgender']
Criticises ideas that 'conferring rights on people means we are taking away rights from other people' - first hint of rights of women at risk, and the rights-hoarding dinosaurs..

CAOIMHGHÍN Ó CAOLÁIN SF
Positive. Emphasised suicide aspect. Praised SF's work on gender. 'It is time for Ireland to wake up!'
Asked if trans health care available on med card [later stated: yes] and does the Dept of Health fund TENI, and 'if not why not?' [later stated: it does].

SENATOR JILLIAN VAN TURNHOUT IND
New to issue, so 'struggling with vocabulary'.
Referred to 'my children's rights background', so interested in their process of ID and understanding.
Brought up intersex, and also older and asylum-seeker trans people.
Somewhat neutral? didn't say much, implied that children's rights should include GR etc.

V LACY AGAIN
Urgent need to impact health, education, legislation. Quoted another suicidal child.
Need for 'age-appropriate literature' 'that will ensure children as young as two to five years of age are aware of their gender ID'
Ref to funding from 'Atlantic Philantrophies' which is Chuck Feeney's, not the usual George Soros's organisation!

B GIAMBRONE AGAIN
Discussed other countries' gender legislation. Also intersex - 'more than 40 intersex conditions, doctors make 'best guess' at birth.

DR PHILIP CROWLEY corrected that HSE had only made submissions to interdepartmental GR group, but were not part of it. 'We [HSE] provide a small amount of funding to TENI' - I think it was V Lacy's post?.

SEN COLM BURKE FG
Bland qq about training for health care sector. No very positive statements.

CATHERINE BYRNE FG
'Moving and uplifting' '78% have considered suicide' but then went into comments not really related to GR. Unclear. Possibly dodging having to say anything very positive?

SANDRA McLELLAN SF
Suicide stats 'frightening'. Keeping children alive till 16 'frightening'.
Surprised to learn that 2-5 year olds 'identify'.
Apart from being so 'frightened', didn't make any v positive statements.

MARY MITCHELL O'CONNOR FG
'I thank our guests for shining a light into Ireland's dark corners' and comments on Irish attitudes being so absolutist - but no v positive statements.
Asked a few qq about where people can get information from.

SENATOR [DR] JOHN CROWN IND
Asked about anti-trans discrimination in hospitals, particularly religious-run.
[seemed to be a mixed picture]
Complained - directed towards Philip Crowley - that HSE don't provide enough specialists in any field, including endocrinology which is the key area for trans health [hormones].

SENATOR KATHERINE ZAPPONE IND
A rather bland contribution on various proposed legislation, extension of health care to cover all etc. Repeated estimate of 1% of population trans.

VANESSA LACY AGAIN
[I quote a lot of this as I personally found it astonishingly inappropriate, read the full minutes yourselves to see if I'm being unfair.]

Referring back to a q about services for older people, Lacy said
'we work with people as young as 82 and as old as six'
'I gave a full day's training to Youth Work Ireland' and a
'presentation to 4th, 5th and 6th years in [a secondary school]'
'I am a 6'3" t/gender woman and I suppose that is intimidating. I normally bring in loads of sweets to soften people before I start'
[the 'people' in question are children]
The students 'were like bunny rabbits...lapping it all up'
'One needs to get into the schools ... We can nail transphobia in the schools'.
Then more on the importance of GR legislation.

DR PHILIP CROWLEY HSE
Referred back to need for training in health care, expert care but also awareness in general staff.
'A very capable organisation like TENI is an obvious partnership for us [HSE] because we are, relatively speaking, clueless in regard to the issues'
End.