Referendum!

[springbrigid]

Anyone inclined to give an opinion? I am leaning towards a yes/no vote, the yes to remove what I see as sexist language in the constitution, the no because the government are so appalling in terms of providing services and rights to disabled citizens and I feel the clause is paternalistic and pushes care on families yet again

Simon Harris also hit back at Michael McDowell being legalistic over the wording of the referendum. You couldn't make it up.

No/No for me for the simple reason I do not trust ROG or this government anymore.
They have been purposely vague and I think by not releasing the minutes of the meetings regarding possible implications, it feels like something sinister is going on.

Yes Roderic said "it was in the publics best interest not to see the wording" of the meeting.. Like the public who will be voting in less than 4 weeks time!

But surely your interpretation of what a 'durable relationship' is may not be someone else's. If they want to recognise single parents why not explicitly say so? Why use a wishy washy term like durable relationship that means whatever someone wants it to mean?

The information I've heard/read/received from constitutional law experts indicates a durable relationship is what's treated in case law as a 'de facto family', for example as in the recent O'Meara case - info on case here: (https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/10/23/prejudice-behind-unmarried-mans-exclusion-from-widowers-pension/)

The Oireachtas Committee made similar recommendations to the CA.
Irish case law is often interpreted according to what people thought they were voting for in various referenda - having a discourse and recommendations in advance are an aspect of that, whether by CA / committee etc. Therefore, while they don't have binding legislative power they do hold some legal sway.

An emphatic no no
I also hope the non carrying of the referendum actually topples our useless govt

Losing a referendum won't bring a government down. It never has in the past at least. And let's face it, there isn't some brilliant alternative hiding in the wings (is there?)

Can anybody remember what was the referendum they ran twice. I know I voted the same the second time

I was talking to family member last night who says they want it ambiguous so judges can rule as they see fit case to case. With the relationship.

I was actually just going to post the same... If they get a no vote they will probably hold another one worded differently until they get what they want... Sure didn't Sinn Féin win the last election & this shower still wrangled their way in..

Winning a referendum doesn't seem to matter too much either seeing as FF FG did so badly in the last election. SF may not be a brilliant alternative in some minds but they're certainly very popular.

Lisbon in 2008 and again in 2009. In fairness the Brits probably wouldn’t have minded another go at the shred it referendum

The wording and terms of the Lisbon treaty changed between the two votes (partly because of our rejection of it first time).

We voted against divorce, then for it in a later referendum - it's good that we can do a re-run as society changes. But we really do know what we're voting on, and why.

@VoteNONO - nope Sinn Féin didn't win the last election. If they had, they would be in power. They got more votes than FG or FF but were unable to get enough support from other parties/independents to form a government.

I absolutely agree. If we weren't allowed run referenda again, the 8th would not have been repealed. While I do think the re-running of Lisbon was a bit of stroke politics, the did listen to people's concerns and make some changes to address those concerns.

That article doesn't actually mention 'durable relationship' though, and nor does it give a definition. I personally think if that couple wanted the benefits of marriage then they should have gotten married.

I'm still none the wiser as to what a durable relationship means under the law.

I think it does matter to them in that they'll see it as some sort of vindication. They want to win this not because of the issues in the amendments but because it is "their" referendum. They don't want a backlash anti-govt vote. They want to be able to pat themselves on the back and tell themselves that the electorate is on the same page as them. Mind you, there's also a view that they'd happily lose this if it got the anti-govt sentiment out of the way and allowed them to do better in June. I don't know if that has any merit. SF is very up and down (or more accurately down and down) in recent polls. They're struggling to hold onto the different groups that make up their potential electorate as they try to position a new immigration policy. I don't think anyone will be calling the outcome of the next GE with certainty. (I think the outcome of the referendum is more predictable unfortunately).

@3timeslucky the problem is Sinn Féin is no longer opposition, they are agreeing with the govt on many policies. Also backing a yes vote in the current referendum. We have no opposition party in Ireland, just a few independents..

No, it doesn't mention durable relationships but according to legal experts what is currently termed a 'de facto family' will be the basis for understanding durable relationships and O'Meara is a significant case for that.

Re Durable Relationships, think surrogacy and "family" reunification of successful asylum seekers. That could be the flippin hidden agenda that's behind this useless for most of us referendum.

Minister for Children and Integration remember who he is?

We were told the 8th Amendment would not result in women being denied the right to travel and yet we still ended up with the X Case.

While there might be an assumption of what durabile relationship means based on current understanding, it is not a legally defined term. What happens if someone in a relationship we would not currently consider to be a de facto family argues in court their relationship is durable? If it has endured and it is a relationship, then surely it must be a durable relationship?

A No from me. Lack of clarity on it all, too many questions remaining and I absolutely don't trust Rodders. Also more pressing things in the country to be dealing with than this right now. Time for an election (though it's probably going to be more of the same 🙄 there are a few characters I'd like to see the back of)

The honest truth is that women do do more in the home, and I don't see any issue with that being explicitly recognised.

Especially since the proposed wording is so woolly, and poorly defined.

No/No.

Also, doing it on Women's day just feels like a major manipulation, which sets my spidey senses tingling.

Exactly this. Also why did he not want the public seeing the minutes to the meeting..