Is it likely Irish unification will happen in years to come?

[cuppateaandabiccie]

I’m in NI and I quite like being a part of the UK so I most certainly am against a United Ireland.

i like our education system and I know the health service is on its knees, but I’d rather not pay every time I need to go to the doctors.

obviously Sinn Fein are now the biggest party meaning they can nominate for First Minister - does this actually pose a risk to the union with the UK?

If the Deputy First Minister and First Minister both hold equal office - then surely they had the same chances of trying to implement a border poll when the they were Deputy First Minister?

if there was to be a border poll, do people think the majority would support Irish unity or go against it?

also, do people think the DUP will refuse to enter government with Sinn Fein as FM?

'the little streets' is Ireland and 'the great' is Britain. He didn't agree with her fight. He knew it wasn't going to be successful. 800 years of subjugation had left Ireland defenceless essentially. It was never going to be a fair fight.

Dev was a cunt. Collins did his best. And he was assassinated at 33.

The problem isn't the reabsorption of the Irish in NI into the ROI. It's having to take the unionists with them. Who the fuck wants them? Nobody! Lol.

Well, Dev didn't want to be the one whose name went down in history for fighting for all of Ireland. So he sent Collins.

That should read 'for NOT fighting for all of Ireland'.

I'm rusty on the details of the time of the negotiations with Collins and the Brits, but I'm pretty sure that the 6 counties were left to the UK on the basis that they were the most densely occupied part of Ireland. As in it was the part of Ireland with most planted Brits (Scots).

@JetTail
I totally agree Yeats had misgivings about the revolution, no argument there. He was very shocked by it though, he didn't foresee it in September 1913 (which is why I replyed to your comment saying he 'had it right' in that poem).

We seemed to do very little except Yeats for Leaving Cert English poetry (many years ago now)😅 They bring back memories.

I took a gamble that Yeats was due to come up in my leaving cert. He was the only fucker of a poet I studied. And he came up! I just hadn't time to spend on more than one Irish poet, so I know him inside out haha! I liked Kinsella too, but Yeats was due (the poets were cyclical in the LC) so I would have been fucked if he hadn't come up. 😆

I do love his poetry though. But I think I'm with him on 'romantic Ireland's dead and gone'. It's just too late now.

Wrt to NHS though, some seem to think that ROI is like the US. It's not. If you're poor, you will have completely free healthcare. If you're not, under 6 is completely free and most companies offer either free or heavily subsidised private health insurance. I personally feel that the care in ROI is far superior to the NHS. One example is where I was dying gradually really over here and kept being sent home from hospital in England. I went back to Ireland and within 24 hours I was given IV medication which hadn't even been discussed over here and also a blood transfusion as I was so unwell. I had been at least 6 weeks in and out of hospital in England and no help was given at all. In the ROI, the costs are not necessarily the primary focus of the HSE. In England, cost is everything.
Yes, there are long waiting lists for treatment (also free). But in Ireland, less focus is put on the costs of treatment. There are everyday treatments in Ireland which you won't get in the UK.

I think we could learn a lot from how things are run in ROI re paying to see the GP, etc. Effectively it seems to be going that way in the UK with people seeing private GPs online anyway.

@MargaretBall is correct

there is not one soul alive today on this island who is obligated to “right any wrongs” of the past. The past is the past and those people are long dead. We live in a democracy for the people here and now and the future.

Ireland is an island and all the people have interbred and moved around so much we all share commonality. People on here are confusing the Irishness shared by living on the one island of Ireland ( which yes includes NI unionists who are also Irish) with the political structures of living either in NI or ROI.
unfortunately that leads to some on here thinking they are somehow more Irish than those in NI. You aren’t! You just live under an Irish government whereas we live under a devolved section of the Uk government.

unification will firstly only happen where there is a uniting of hearts and minds. Not land borders, and that won’t happen while people talk about others as though they are some sort of other species.

People on here are confusing the Irishness shared by living on the one island of Ireland ( which yes includes NI unionists who are also Irish) with the political structures of living either in NI or ROI.
**

• *But surely some NI unionists don't want to identify as Irish, but rather as British @blubberyboo? As is their right.

NI Unionists are Irish now are they?

@JetTail
read the thread ..I don’t need to explain it again
in your earlier comments it’s clear you think otherwise

I know some Unionists see themselves as Northern Irish,@blubberyboo. I thought some others would choose to identity solely as British though? I mean, I know the identities can co-exist, but I thought some unionists would be firmly in the British camp while rejecting describing themselves as Irish or sometimes even as Northern Irish? I would also have thought, from a unionist point of view, there's a difference between saying that you're Northern Irish and that you're Irish.

I'd be very happy to be wrong about this though.

@blubberyboo Just to reiterate that I'm talking about the opinions of some, not all, Unionists. I know there's a mix of opinions on how people identify. I just think that surely not all would think of themselves as Irish (that is, as you have described them)?

@BessieFinkNottle

upthread it was explained how before and after partition all unionists considered themselves Irish men mostly of the Protestant faith, albeit politically they wanted aligned with UK. They wanted to politically be part of UK. They didn’t want controlled by Catholic Church.
The “troubles” (hate the word) conflict moved younger generations to further reject Irishness in the sense that it was seen as a threat to their Protestant existence. But again it stems from their innate fear passed thru generations of being potentially controlled by a government they didn’t choose and being taken out of Uk and under Catholic Church. Those are the things they reject. Church and governance.Politics

Outside of that they are just normal people who have the same personalities, outlooks and attitudes and often customs of all other people on the Island.
The conflict and language during that troubles time was geared towards about driving them out. Phrases like Brits out etc totally missed the point that they were Irish people on Irish land and further deep seated attitudes because if you tell people they don’t really belong, they are occupiers or they should piss off somewhere else from their homeland..well they aren’t going to want to politically align with those people and hardens phrasing and attitudes.

Many of the older unionists who were old enough to remember their parents talking about living as Protestants in Ireland would identify as British-Irish Ulstermen. Paisley was one
one of my grandfathers was an orangeman and considered himself British and Northern Irish but also never rejected being Irish. He loved everything about Donegal, Galway etc and felt solidarity with the Irish.
Born in the 20s his parents of course had only recently gone through partition when they were previously both Irish and British. So that was how he was raised. I’ve seen very similar in others of similar generations.

Younger people obviously don’t remember before partition nor have had first hand accounts from immediate parents and so tend to adopt the identity more of Northern Irish. That is a product of the recent conflict.

But what is Northern Irish if not a type of Irish? it is ludicrous to suggest it is something else. Maybe it actually more so fitted into a nationalist agenda to do so because it gave clout to the opinion that they should all just “feck off back to England” where of course many of them had never set foot. I have a parent age 70 who has never once set foot off this island…not once! Not even a visit to Rathlin. But yet some people here are saying they are not really Irish just because they might also describe themselves as British. How could you be born, bred and spend your entire 70 years on the island of Ireland and be anything but Irish?

Scots consider themselves firstly Scottish and secondly British. Same with Welsh. It’s kind of the same thing.

Whilst yet is true and you are correct some will only ever say they are British or Northern Irish when asked to tick a box or identify outwardly in daily life most really feel a blend of everything. When they go abroad they often feel more at home with other Irish people than English. They cheer on Irish rugby, Irish Olympians, vote for Irish Eurovision. If there is an Englishman and an Irishman competing in sport against each other you can be as sure as shit they will support the Irishman. Example was the British Open final in Portrush. Everyone cheered on Shane Lowry not his English opponent. Many of the spectators in that area were unionists at a British tournament who also call themselves British.
They say Phrases in passing like “my Irish skin”, or “we have the luck of the Irish” or “ we Irish love the craic”. I hear it all the time from the same people who would state they are British if asked. It’s inherently in them because it was in their grandparents and great grandparents.

I suppose people see the political parties on the news and their posturing and arguing along with occasional flashpoint clashes on the news and think that’s how every unionist is. Truthfully it is an awful lot more complex than what you see on the news. But media loves the black and white

sluggerotoole.com/2016/05/29/ian-paisley-we-are-irish/

Thank you very much @blubberyboo.
Very much appreciate that explanation.

The influence of the Catholic church is so much weaker now in Ireland and as they said on Derry girls we're just 'flavours of the same religion' really.

What exactly do Unionists fear by being governed from Dublin (if such a thing were ever to happen)? In many ways London seems to understand and care far less about NI than Dublin does. Is it simply due to an ideology that's rooted in history? Are Unionists afraid their culture will be diluted in some way? But, as you've described it, we have so much in common already.

(I'm sorry if these seem like very stupid questions, I'm in ROI and though I have very strong links to NI, none are Unionist.)

Seriously?

Yes, seriously @JetTail.

I'm not talking about the hardliners, but the moderates especially.

I don't think London gives a damn about NI. I'm curious why they still care about the Union so much, especially if they are Irish in many ways as @blubberyboosays. Is it all about identity, them vs us? Religion doesn't matter like it once did, or does it?
Like a pp said, I don't understand how Unionists think. (Some of the decisions the DUP made during Brexit seemed to defy logic imo.)

Surely asking is better than making assumptions.

@BessieFinkNottle

i think the slugger article articulates it well and why there was shifts in recent history to reject Irishness and use Northern Irish more or just British when describing themselves. It’s ironic that a lot of it was caused by nationalist goading language which actually was counterproductive to what the nationalists wanted to achieve and actually resulted in unionists stopping calling themselves Irish and using N Irish instead.

in short I think Unionists and Protestants do enjoy being part of the UK and having links there. Aside from the obvious economic, financial, health , defence and education changes there would be so many more cultural things that could change ranging from potentially changed links and travel with GB, ( the common travel area could be lost as a result) to loss of the monarchy which is important to many.

But if those things were pacified I still think in terms of fear factors they will feel invalid or least important citizens in a UI even now. do think the church is less influential in Ireland but I don’t think older NI generations really see that. They still think the church holds power and could potentially prevent them from worshipping how they want. Younger people certainly will know this isn’t the case. in terms of feeling welcome in society and being influential in government it is still a huge barrier for unionists .

ultimately it is down to attitudes. Even today I see thread after thread calling unionists things like: planters , Scots, illegal occupiers, Brits out. derogatory language originating from things that happened centuries ago and which seeks to minimise them to some sort of illegal immigrant.
A United Ireland would still be a cold house for unionists or maybe even also Protestants. Even on this thread someone said they would be happy to reunite with NI if only they didn’t have to take the unionists with it.

I mean it baffles me when people talk about pushing for UI as if it is just about taking land plus the nationalists who want to unite without considering that the language they are using is unwelcoming and disregards unionists as valid people of the region. How on earth is that in any way unifying people?

Surely the process has to start with the very people who would prevent it from happening. You would have to make them actually want it to ensure firstly that it happened, and secondly that it remained stable.

www.theirishworld.com/a-united-ireland-would-be-acceptable-says-ian-paisleys-widow/

Thanks very much for the explanations @blubberyboo, much appreciated.

There's mention about irish unionists however I don't know of a single person who is Irish in NI who would call themselves a unionist. They don't want a United Ireland, many catholic Irish won't want this for various reasons but they wouldn't describe themselves as unionist regardless of what the word means and more than a Protestant who might support unification for whatever reason would describe themselves as a nationalist.
These words which don't mean a lot to people not from NI mean something in NI.
Irish isn't interchangeable with northern Irish they don't mean the same thing. You will get many who say I'm not Irish I'm northern Irish and vice versa.

Also healthcare is a major issue. Despite the failings of the nhs health service it's free and that will be an issue during any referendum.
As far as I'm aware a visit to the gp in the south costs €60, prescriptions aren't free and there are many other services which will cost money.
Saying that the nhs is rubbish and it'll be privatised anyway isn't much of an argument. Unless privatisation of the nhs had already happened or was definitely likely to happen in the near future it's not going to be much of campaign plus point.
Saying that poor people will get it free is great for poor people but what about people who are not poor but certainly aren't rich either.
I don't doubt healthcare in roi has major advantages and is better in many ways but our 'free' healthcare will be an issue.

@VeryStressedMum I don’t agree that there are many ‘catholic’ ( I can see you are struggling to describe this group) Irish in the north who are unionist .
There may have been more who were ambivalent a few years ago but Brexit completely changed all that .
Brexit shook the complacent, vaguely nationalist types out of their slumber - I count myself among their number .
While we were part of a greater Europe I could look south and to Europe and tell myself that my identity was acknowledged. The morning after the Brexit vote result I would have voted for a united ireland then and there . Still would . And speaking to my friends and acquaintances there are many like me

Also @VeryStressedMum the NHS is not free. Free at the point of use but we pay !!
And for what ? Look at the private clinics and hospitals all over south Belfast . Anyone with a bit of money is going private now . I’m totally against private health btw.

Health will be the first area dealt with on the island as it is the most pressing issue for most people north and south