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Britain Is In Steep Decline But Govt Is Busy Distracting Us With Ideologies

80 replies

Maggispice · 12/12/2024 14:43

"Britain is going through a period of major decline. Ipsos poll conducted earlier this year found that “68% of people in Britain say the country is in decline. [This] marks a sharp increase since 2021 when only 48% agreed that the country was in decline.”
Why do British people feel this way? Let’s look at the facts.
Politicians tell us the economy is growing. And who could disagree? In 2023, Britain’s economy grew by a whopping 0.1%! This magnificent result was achieved despite the economy shrinking by 0.3% in the last quarter of 2023 and 0.1% in the quarter before. When I was studying economics at university, we were taught that two consecutive quarters of “negative growth” was called a “recession”. Today, we call that “building an innovative economy”.
But are these figures an accurate reflection of British living standards? Not even close. Forget the fact that heroin consumption and prostitution contribute more to our GDP than volunteer work. Let’s look at GDP per capita, i.e. how much economic activity we produce per person. This is where the reality of British decline really comes to the fore:

What you can see from this graph is that GDP per capita fell sharply during the Great Financial Crisis of 2007-2008 and has still not recovered. What is more, this graph is not adjusted for inflation which, as we all know, has been a massive problem for years. Put simply, on average, British people are poorer today than they were in 2007.
And this is no accident. Because our politicians are judged on whether they have delivered GDP growth, they don’t actually care about whether you and I are richer or poorer. This is why the country experienced unprecedented immigration levels under the Blair/Brown Labour Government, and then even higher levels under the Cameron/May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak Conservative Governments. The easiest way to deliver GDP growth is to increase the number of people in the country. The way they have done this (importing low skilled, low wage workers) makes us poorer, but in a way that politicians can’t be blamed for.
Economic growth in Britain is not just anaemic, it’s an accounting trick. Think of it like this: You are a family with two children. Both parents earn the average British salary of £35,000 a year. Your household’s “GDP” is £70,000. Then your in-laws move in with you and chip in another £10,000 a year. Your GDP has grown by £10,000, but your GDP per capita has fallen from £17,500 (70,000/4) to £13,333 (80,000/6). Your household now makes more money, but each person is poorer. That’s Britain in a nutshell.
Share
Money isn’t everything, of course, but the lack of it makes everything worse. The crumbling infrastructure, the release of dangerous criminals from prison because of overcrowding, the failure to catch criminals or even investigate crimes, growing NHS waiting lists and even the anger that spills out during riots is a product, in large part, of a stagnating economy.
The housing crisis means that across the country the average age of a first-time buyer is now almost 34. In London, where all the good jobs are, that is now nearly 37. In other words, even for people who can afford their own home, the point at which they are likely to buy one is now so late in life they may struggle to have children for purely biological reasons. While housing is not the only cause, it is clearly a contributing factor to the halving of Britain’s Total Fertility Rate in just 60 years. In 1964, British women had 2.93 children on average. Today we are well below replacement at 1.59.
Falling fertility rates are a common phenomenon across the Western world and beyond, one that has cultural, economic and spiritual dimensions. But the fact remains that a society not having enough children to replace its population is doomed to face both decline and the uncontrolled mass immigration we’re seeing today.
A nation can endure and bounce back from periods of stagnation and even decline, provided there is a sense of common purpose and a willingness to be honest about the problems it faces. In Britain, we have neither.
The nation - and the common purpose that came with it - is rapidly becoming a thing of the past, to be replaced with the much-celebrated “communities” we keep hearing so much about. Instead of seeing ourselves as British first and everything else second, we are now Asian, Black, White, Jewish, Muslim, Christian and LGBTQI+ first and little else second.
As for honesty, we shun, ostracise and increasingly set what is left of our police on people who express widely-held views about illegal immigration, the threat of Islamist terrorism, and the failure of multiculturalism—especially if they come from the working class, whose crass ways and ugly sentiments offend the sensibilities of the chattering classes.
I could go on but you get the point. And if you’re reading this in the UK, you live the point.
I see no urgency. When I listen to people of all political persuasions who run this country, they’re all doing their best to pretend that what is happening is normal. A problem to be managed. I assumed this was the face they were putting on for public consumption but, alas, behind closed doors they’re exactly the same.
This is one of the very best qualities of the British psyche: to remain steadfast and calm, no matter the circumstances. The world over, people admire the British when they hear the story of Antarctic explorer Lawrence Oates, who left his tent and walked into a blizzard to certain death because the gangrene and frostbite from which he was suffering were compromising his three companions' chances of survival, doing so with the words “I am just going outside and may be some time".
My point is, the British are a remarkably unexcitable people. As a result, we avoid an awful lot of trouble of the kind that comes with the impulsivity and quickness to action that we see both on the Continent and across the Atlantic. But this is only a strength if you are steadfast and calm while taking action. And that’s the problem: no one really knows what to do.
People say that if Britain was attacked, we’d struggle to get people to enlist to defend it. I think that’s nonsense. If our country went through what the people of Ukraine experienced in February 2022 or what Israel suffered on October 7, I have no doubt there would be millions of young men around this country who would volunteer to serve and millions of others who would support the war effort.
But we’re not in a war. There is no enemy to fight. There is just a creeping, unstoppable malaise. And so we don’t know what to do. Even now, with the wave of enthusiasm that swept through the United States, our equivalent coalition of the anti-woke centre and centre-right is cautiously positive and imperceptibly optimistic."

The above was written by Konstantin Kisin.
What do you think about this and how can we get the country producing again?
Using immigration to prop up the numbers is fool hardy. Most of the low skill immigrant visas tend to have on average 3 dependents. In some countries care visas are being sold for upwards of £15,000 as it cos with visas for all dependents. So to a family of 4 children who want a British education it's a no brainer or if you have a dependent who needs long term medical attention. So many families take out loans to pay unscrupulous agents to get them a certificate of sponsorship with a care home so they can bring their family of 6 in some cases. Housing, schools and GPs are feeling the brunt. These cost money so even if the govt started a huge program of training more carers and supplementing their wage it will still cost less than the cost of education, GPs, pressure on infrastructure etc and be better for the country economically, socially and more in the long run.
Shouldn't we all write out MPs so they can go back to the drawing board and build the country?

OP posts:
lljkk · 15/12/2024 10:53

What do you think about this

Very hard to comment since "decline" is never defined. Also the opening poll is a public opinion poll. It;s not based on real metrics.

how can we get the country producing again?

Given politicians have commented heavily on increasing productivity for 10 years, esp. since Truss premiership, I don't understand anyone saying that politicians aren't addressing low productivity.

Most of the low skill immigrant visas tend to have on average 3 dependents.

That is a good thing. Their children will be the high skilled taxpayers of future, helpful because the birthrate among indigenous born people is low.

care visas are being sold for upwards of £15,000

Is that happening in UK?

I didn't follow the rest of the paragraph. It seemed to be saying that if a foreign family wants to live in UK all they have to do is put their older family member in a UK care home and they will easily get visas to live here. And something about (non-existent) UK people who might want to work in care homes but don;t currently.

rocky5001 · 15/12/2024 11:38

Nanalisa60 · 15/12/2024 09:51

rocky5001

It's moronic, but plenty of people seem to believe it - enough to reelect Trump, after all. You seem to believe it so good luck.

Well we have four years to sit back and see who on the right road our glorious Leader tax all Keir or Trump!!

I know who I would bet on, I will be happy in four years time to say if I’m Wrong and that the Labour government has done a great job and everything is going just dandy, , I doubt very much you would ever be able to say the same if you are wrong and Trump turns the USA economy around and we are on our knees.

Only time will tell.

I'm not sure why you are so confident about what I will or won't be willing to admit, when you know nothing about me, but a few points here:

The question of what does or doesn't get achieved in the next four years spectacualrly misses the point: We've ALREADY had fourteen years to judge the results of Conservative economic policy in the UK. Yet there is the most extraordinary resistance to dong so, casting round to blame just about anyone else, or simply waiting so that we'll be able to say in four years time that noone else is any better (hell, why even wait four years? Tories were wailing about how Starmer was responsible for all the UK's problems practically before his arse had even hit the seat at No.10.

And in a more general sense, we've had over forty years of the hegemony of neoliberalism, from Thatcher's reforms in the 1980s through to Blair's "modernising" of the Labour party to accept the primacy of (so called) free markets over state intervention, through austerity under Cameron etc. In that time there hasn't been a genuinely left wing government in the UK - in the sense that the Attlee or Wilson governments, or some of the European social democracies since, were left wing. And Keir Starmer's version of "Labour" is no exception. Capitalism won the argument ("There Is No Alternative"). Great, so you'd think the proponents of capitalism would be happy to get on with their program and rejoice in what it can achieve...

Except, it seems, when it's shown to work only for a select few, massively increase inequality and make the majority of peoples' lives worse. Then, according to the nonsensical rhetoric of people like Trump, Farage and Kissin, it's all the fault of somebody or something else. Funny that.

ToBeOrNotToBee · 15/12/2024 11:40

I agree completely

Nanalisa60 · 15/12/2024 12:45

rocky5001

As I said we will wait and see. This Labour government of record high taxation has four years to convince people that paying record taxation and making them poorer will make the country a better place to live. I personally won’t hold my breath. But you never no pigs might fly!! And socialism might work !!

TooBigForMyBoots · 15/12/2024 14:19

dottiehens · 14/12/2024 05:59

Run do not walk. The sense of dread is off the charts. I am not waiting to see if things get better. Life is too short. Unfortunately, I rely on others to leave so very anxious until it happens.

Where are you going?

TooBigForMyBoots · 15/12/2024 15:29

shortoedtreecreeper · 14/12/2024 09:38

Gender Ideology?

Not much gender ideology coming out of this government, unless you mean the puberty blocker ban.

He gives a thorough and accurate summary of the decline of the country under the last fourteen years of Conservative government and neoliberal economics, then suggests the left is somehow to blame and the answer lies in the "centre right anti-woke".

I think this is one of the most depressing things about the UK atm: The refusal of many to accept that the country was wrecked by 14 years of Tory incompetence and right wing fuckwittery. That level of denial is wearying and difficult to be around @rocky5001.

PandoraSox · 15/12/2024 15:37

Nanalisa60 · 15/12/2024 12:45

rocky5001

As I said we will wait and see. This Labour government of record high taxation has four years to convince people that paying record taxation and making them poorer will make the country a better place to live. I personally won’t hold my breath. But you never no pigs might fly!! And socialism might work !!

This government is not socialist!

Lovelyview · 15/12/2024 15:55

I was in my late teens/early twenties in the 1980s and that was in many ways a similarly depressing time. I feel like there was more energy to change things than there is now but that might be because I was young. There was a lot of poverty and homelessness and the job market was pretty terrible but it also had really exciting music and creative culture. I do think the way society has moved online means that there is less physical action happening - people make music on a computer rather than in a group, for example. I don't think things are particularly terrible now for most people but it does feel like large parts of society can't see how to make things better. Lots of people seem stuck with zero hours contracts and expensive housing costs which don't leave spare money to do anything else. I agree with Kisin that no-one seems to know what to do although Labour have claimed they are going to prioritise growth so we shall see

TooBigForMyBoots · 15/12/2024 23:21

I grew up in Belfast, in the troubles. Not seeing my loved ones dead on the evening news is a bonus for me and we're not close to that.

My bar is very low.Blush

unclemtty · 15/12/2024 23:33

Too many years with the Tories in charge.
I'm a socialist so I would have to prefer a different party in charge, but I don't mind them being in power every now and then for the sake of balance.
But the extreme right flourished under there time, they've trashed schools, hospitals and by starving councils local services, all the things we need for a successful healthy equitable society.
Brexit was a horror story for this country and was bound to put the UK into decline.
So yes we have been declining for a while now, maybe there will be some miracle that will stop that, but the Tories have removed all so much I'm not sure.

TooBigForMyBoots · 16/12/2024 00:37

dottiehens · 14/12/2024 05:59

Run do not walk. The sense of dread is off the charts. I am not waiting to see if things get better. Life is too short. Unfortunately, I rely on others to leave so very anxious until it happens.

We're you entitled to FOM when we were EU members?

nomoretoriesforme · 16/12/2024 08:47

AreYouMeOrWhat · 12/12/2024 17:09

So it's written by a Russian satirist and you want us to take it seriously?

He is Jewish British Russian if it makes it any better for you..

Foreigners88 · 16/12/2024 20:20

Hm. I just looked mentally that is to say out of the window. Same neighbours living here , the same type of finance as 7 years ago. The working keep working, the guys on benefits as always on them, the retired on their pensions and so on and some have moved out to Heaven

Summerhillsquare · 16/12/2024 22:04

nomoretoriesforme · 16/12/2024 08:47

He is Jewish British Russian if it makes it any better for you..

He's a nasty stir the pot racist and OP has fallen for it.

TooBigForMyBoots · 17/12/2024 00:49

Summerhillsquare · 16/12/2024 22:04

He's a nasty stir the pot racist and OP has fallen for it.

Did @Maggispice fall for these witterings? Or did she see something on the internet that confirmed a bias she already had?🤔

samarrange · 17/12/2024 01:05

Maggispice · 15/12/2024 02:31

In fact we're beginning to see diabetes in younger ages including children. Leading to amputation in some.
Social media, lock down etc affecting children's well being and likely to limit their capacity to innovate, strife and persevere in adult life. Lack of affordable and accessible whole foods as farming continue to be less attractive and is decimated. Money pumped into making fake foods and more ultra processed minimal nourishing edibles.

Many graduates are unemployed including first class mathematics and engineers students. I know them personally.

The change in values, lack of common ground and intolerance for the traditions and values of the nation and instead uplifting every other. The fact is that humans need shared values.

So government instead is pandering to emotive irrelevant ideologies on one hand to make them look good, draw attention to them, get more influence, more power which on the other hand means bigger government and higher taxes but a deeply fragmented and confused society. This will eventually weaken the country and make way for China, Russia and the Middle East.
So the question is why is the government not serving the interest of the nation?

So government instead is pandering to emotive irrelevant ideologies on one hand to make them look good, draw attention to them, get more influence, more power which on the other hand means bigger government and higher taxes but a deeply fragmented and confused society.

Can you give an example of a major recent UK government policy that has "pandered to emotive irrelevant ideologies"? Have I missed announcements from PM Starmer about trans-only bus shelters, or bisexual-only GP services, or Muslim-only swimming pools, or special free days at Alton Towers reserved for asylum seekers?

Maggispice · 18/12/2024 00:40

Nanalisa60 · 15/12/2024 04:19

I’m 63 and this is the worse state I have ever seen the country in. It’s just so sad i could just cry it’s really so depressing, The thought of four more years of this government and mass immigration fills me with fear. I probably only have another 20/30 years left and I really believe that the U.K. I was born into in 1961 will be unrecognisable by 2051 and not in a good way. We are being bleed dry with tax but really get nothing in return. For the first time in our life’s two years ago we started to pay for private health insurance because I don’t trust that I will ever be taken care of by the NHS . I don’t trust the government I don’t believe a word that they say, I have stoped believing the main stream media they are just the mouthpiece of the government. In four years time I will vote reform, as I cant take another Labour or Tory government unfortunately by 2027/2028 I think that the U.K. might be bankrupt morally and financially.

I can't believe it, I might actually vote Reform too! Something is seriously wrong. My demographic are the highest voting percentage for Labour and I thought voting Conservative was out of the norm!😳

OP posts:
Maggispice · 18/12/2024 00:46

Nanalisa60 · 15/12/2024 09:12

Rachel Reeves's recent audit of public spending identified a range of in-year spending pressures facing the new government. One of the largest pressures was for costs relating to asylum and illegal migration, with an estimated £6.4 billion of pressures on day-to-day spending in 2024–25.29

The Netherlands is stated that every migrant will cost the state £400,000 over there life time , I don’t think that in the U.K. we will be spending any less then that probably more.

The cost of housing illegal migrants in hotels is £5-6 million a day and rising that’s just the hotel bill, Then there’s the health care the pocket money the teaching of English the free bus passes. once they get asylum then they can bring all there dependents all get housed, fully furnished new homes in many cases and on full benefits.

of course I will be called a racists, but unfortunately there is a elephant in the room and calling anyone in the room who dares says there is a problem with being culturally enriched won’t make the elephant disappear , we are all being made poorer and our services are under strain.

There is nothing wrong with imagination it’s just getting to wright imagination, on a points base.

And don’t even get me started on the madness of Edward Miliband he will make us all poorer with his policies.

But ha ho you all just keep paying those taxes!! work till your 71 and vote for Labour or the Torres nothing will every change. I will be voting reform if they don’t win the next election then we are all doomed!!

So we have four year left to watch and see and feel our country decline, we will also be able to watch what happens in the USA, will be a very different story in each county in four years time one will be on it knees and one will be do just great!!

It seems Kemi is looking to take the Conservatives in the right direction.
It's not an easy task but perhaps she has a few years to convince the country, otherwise Reform will split the vote again.

OP posts:
Maggispice · 18/12/2024 01:07

lljkk · 15/12/2024 10:53

What do you think about this

Very hard to comment since "decline" is never defined. Also the opening poll is a public opinion poll. It;s not based on real metrics.

how can we get the country producing again?

Given politicians have commented heavily on increasing productivity for 10 years, esp. since Truss premiership, I don't understand anyone saying that politicians aren't addressing low productivity.

Most of the low skill immigrant visas tend to have on average 3 dependents.

That is a good thing. Their children will be the high skilled taxpayers of future, helpful because the birthrate among indigenous born people is low.

care visas are being sold for upwards of £15,000

Is that happening in UK?

I didn't follow the rest of the paragraph. It seemed to be saying that if a foreign family wants to live in UK all they have to do is put their older family member in a UK care home and they will easily get visas to live here. And something about (non-existent) UK people who might want to work in care homes but don;t currently.

Yes. Care visas have been sold for between £8,000 and mostly near £20,000. It's cheaper, more straightforward and beneficial than fake marriage. Fake marriage only helps one person, the man or woman usually already in the country but illegal. With a care visa you can bring your spouse and anyone else deemed to be your dependent. Not only your children. Not that in many countries of the world you can procure a birth certificate for peanuts and there's no record keeping so the consular officer has to take it on face value.
There're loans in Asia and Africa to buy these visas. These I know for sure and don't have to be from these countries to confirm. There're certain forums popular with the general public in those countries just like Mumsnet and without even looking for the particular threads discussing it the ad banners on the landing page advertise it. They collide with owners of care homes here.
Even some foreign masters students have had to resort to it because it excludes you from paying visa fees and NHS surcharge, that alone can save a family of 4 £10,000. Although the Home Office is now allowing foreign students plead hardship to be exempt from paying visa fees.

We complain about the govt here but some governments are so bad that even as a major oil producing country, rich with many natural resources there's no stable electricity, healthcare, education etc but you'll have the wealth concentrated in what is referred to as the 1% of the 1%.

So the main ambition of millions of families is to emigrate. With Telegram app etc information is easily shared and weak systems are easily overwhelmed.

I wish things were different.

OP posts:
Maggispice · 18/12/2024 01:13

TooBigForMyBoots · 15/12/2024 23:21

I grew up in Belfast, in the troubles. Not seeing my loved ones dead on the evening news is a bonus for me and we're not close to that.

My bar is very low.Blush

Edited

For different reasons ie different but similar experience my bar is very low but I've lived in the country for decades now and I'm so saddened by how it's going.
I'm thankful for stable electricity, clean drinkable water, police that doesn't steal from you etc but I can see how a good system is being beaten down to fail while being deceived that it's being kind.

OP posts:
Maggispice · 18/12/2024 01:14

unclemtty · 15/12/2024 23:33

Too many years with the Tories in charge.
I'm a socialist so I would have to prefer a different party in charge, but I don't mind them being in power every now and then for the sake of balance.
But the extreme right flourished under there time, they've trashed schools, hospitals and by starving councils local services, all the things we need for a successful healthy equitable society.
Brexit was a horror story for this country and was bound to put the UK into decline.
So yes we have been declining for a while now, maybe there will be some miracle that will stop that, but the Tories have removed all so much I'm not sure.

I'm my view we didn't actually have a truly conservative government all these years.

OP posts:
TiramisuThief · 18/12/2024 04:00

Radishknot · 14/12/2024 07:47

I also think wage stagnation & frozen income tax bands doesn’t get enough attention.

50k today is the equivalent to 40k in 2020 and 33k in 2010. Plenty of jobs that paid 33k in 2010 aren’t paying 50k now.

Agree with this hugely.

I'm in the same (public-facing) industry now that I was in 2012

My first job paid 25k

Similar jobs pay 25k still but for worse terms and conditions. Wages should have increased, they haven't, conditions should be better, they're not.

lljkk · 18/12/2024 09:20

Tinternet says that "care visas" to enter UK are for people who will be employed in caring professions, must have sponsors , & the visas cost no more than £551. Someone is getting major scammed if they paid £20,000. They probably come from wealthy family & received a much better education than UK average if they can blow £20k like that.

Also can't bring dependents.

xH's company sponsored a skilled computer programmer to emigrate to UK from Turkey. The chap soon quit to work for other companies... he didn't bring dependents & was shocked at how expensive everything was.

Britain Is In Steep Decline But Govt Is Busy Distracting Us With Ideologies
BraveToaster · 18/12/2024 12:02

@Radishknot @TiramisuThief Completely agree. I think rising house prices have been a good distraction and fooled many people into thinking they are better off than they actually are. My husband is from the north and the number of times I've heard his friends and family say "my house earned more than me this year". Rising cost of living and stagnant wages is not something to be happy about.

I do think politicians are using ideology to distract people but it is coming mostly from the right. An example is the US election where Harris said nothing about trans people in her policies or speeches yet Trump spent lots of money on ads telling people that this was a core element of her platform. You see it in this very thread with people talking about how much the government is spending on "illegal" immigrants. It is LEGAL to seek asylum. It is part of an international convention for handling refugees and not something the UK or any country can simply withdraw from. Sure there may be some people who are not refugees trying to abuse the system but you need to process them first to find out. The solution is to speed up the processing so that we can identify these people more quickly and cheaply.

Corporations are in on the distraction as well. My FIL was recently talking about the NI tax increase. While there is an argument for how this impacts small businesses we should not be siding with Tesco over this. They don't HAVE TO pay less, hire fewer, raise grocery prices, but they choose to do so because they don't want to impact their already substantial profits. You should be angry at Tesco for caring so little about its employees and customers, not at Labour. You should be voting for policies that protect consumers and workers, address price gouging, monopolies, etc not falling for Tesco's manipulations and voting for a party that let corporations take advantage of all of us.

I do think there are hard choices to be made and politicians could do a better job at articulating their policies though. Idk if it's a tendency in the UK to not be direct or what. To give an example on a small scale, where I live people complain that there is not enough public transport and traffic is bad. But when the government wants to build a tram, they complain that it will impact the road. I wish someone would plainly say "you can keep things as they are and accept the traffic or you can put up with temporary roadworks to have a better public transport network and hopefully less traffic in the future. Which would you prefer?" Moaning about everything isn't an option. Going back to 70 years ago when there was less traffic (because fewer people could afford cars) isn't an option. A perfect option doesn't exist. But let's have an honest conversation about the pros and cons and make a decision that sets us up well for the future.

InveterateWineDrinker · 18/12/2024 17:39

Britain has been in decline for decades. Most western democracies have as economic activity shifts eastwards.

The Blair/Brown administration papered over declining GDP per head (augmented hugely by plummeting productivity, which is a uniquely British phenomenon) by stealth taxation, huge borrowing, and redistribution through the tax credit system - for the vast majority of people the increase in wealth from 1997 to the financial crisis was actually illusory.

Cameron, to his credit, tried to address this through austerity, but it didn't work. When people cottoned on to the fact that they actually were getting poorer they rebelled. The EU referendum might have been about dealing with the political threat from UKIP, but the foundation of that threat was people knowing they were getting poorer and wanting someone to blame, and finding the EU a convenient but false scapegoat. Theresa May... well the less said the better.

Boris used ideology more than any of them, but conflated it with his own boosterism and the ideology turned out to be weapons grade bullshit. Truss steered the ship into the iceberg, and Rishi simply re-arranged the deckchairs as it went down at the bow.

The problem with Starmer is that he really is trying to say that Britain is in decline, but nobody wants to hear it and as a result he now appears to be less popular in his own party than outside it, which is quite an achievement. He is not going to be allowed to draw up any pragmatic solutions because the electorate will just put its fingers in its ears and go "la la la la la la la" and wish Britain back to the Fifties.

Nigel will offer that to us. And then we're all fucked.

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