To be so cross at the government

[Hillary17]

I honestly have no idea what we’re going to do next year and it’s now keeping me up at night worrying about our financial situation. We’ve been sensible and cut back as much as possible, got rid of all the luxuries people on here suggest to cut back on but there’s still a massive hole forming in our finances. Ours savings have been wiped by buying our first home and general cost of living over the last six months. We saved for ten years to buy our first home together, worked incredibly hard and sacrificed. It’s hardly a mansion either, your bog standard first house! Currently paying around £750 a month on the mortgage. We fixed for two years due to our jobs being a bit in flux and not sure if we’d need to move - this runs out next year and have just been quoted £1150 for our new price. How can this even be possible?! Where do the banks and government think people are going to find this extra money? We can’t even sell up and rent because there’s a huge crisis in the rental market near us and sales are bombing; we’re absolutely trapped here for god knows how long. We’re not extravagant, just comfortable middle earners who wants a normal life. I know there’s people worse off than us (I’m terrified for them because I can’t even explain the rise in our food shop or household bills) but I’m genuinely starting to think nobody cares about the middle income families. We work really hard, earn a decent amount but still won’t be able to afford to put the heating on this winter. I know I’m going to get bashed for this but I’d expect to at least be able to afford a bloody takeaway on a weekend without being in a state of panic. How is that even a situation in 2022?! I’m just so furious with the government honestly. No point to this post other than to say god help everyone who is a low income earner because if things in the middle are this bleak I dread to think.

Either you are joking or this is beyond dim. Is this a satirical account? I can't even tell anymore but struggle to believe anybody is this dumb.

And why have you got this bizarre obsession with cabbages? I don't even know anybody who eats cabbage on a regular basis, except perhaps as a minor ingredient in stir fries. What an odd focus when trying to discuss an economy of 60 million people.

@Winter2020

"Winter2020
"we're so short of workers that fruit and veg was left rotting in fields?"

Ooh I can't resist. If you won't pay someone a wage that allows dignified work conditions and a quality of life then yes.

If a 40p cabbage requires workers to live in shared caravans and work all day with no toilet or handwashing facilities they yes we shouldn't have a 40p cabbage.

If we need to pay £1 to have a cabbage that allows the people that picked it to have a decent life then we need to pay that £1 or go without."

++++

So let's talk cabbages for a moment. The UK exported £16 million worth of cabbages in 2020 mostly to Ireland and imported £260 million of cabbages mostly from Spain.

So let's go with your suggestion that UK cabbage workers get paid more even if it does result in let's say a £1 cabbage.

The problem is though that £1 cabbages will fail to export when countries can buy let's say 40 pence cabbages from other countries. At the same time a British produced cabbage will fail to sell in a supermarket when you could buy a Spanish produced cabbage for 40 pence. And ultimately the UK cabbage producer would go bust.

Now I agree with you that working conditions need to be satisfactory and slave labour contracting stamped out but this is best done by actual legislation rather than throwing the baby out with bath water by leaving the EU. Instead the UK cabbage producer goes bust and the Spanish cabbage producer expands whilst able to use cheap labour in working conditions the UK has absolutely no say or control over.

But I am grateful for your post as it is a really good example of how many people in society fall for simple suggestions or policies without seeing the consequences or secondary impacts from them and then getting upset when the predicted downside turns up. Or failing to do the slightest fact checking or even consider the other side's arguments when voting, making choices or voicing their opinion such this post by @Winter2020. And lastly how populist politicians can take advantage of these easily manipulated voters for their own gains.

And to add to this ^^ the EU was a large protector of working conditions, which your belived Brexiteers want to slash.

Anybody who believed Brexit would lead to better working conditions is so far beyond being a mug that I don't have a word for it.

*beloved

@1dayatatime yes. An entire country fucked because of the gullible. And worse, too cowardly to then admit the mistake and try to correct it.

Brexit is a revenge on the exam passing classes- Vernon Bogdanor

Ha!

Well it's about to backfire spectacularly on the non-exam passing classes.

@walkinginsunshinekat

Well thats not true.

France, by nationalising EDF/Nuclear energy industry, has capped increases at 4% and next year 15%, inflation is 6.5%, so half what ours is (rpi)

So, why can't we nationalise the 67% of UK energy we produce here.
Its not going to cost anything like the £200 billion we are heading for and with far lower bills."

+++

This response is another great example of how many people in society fall for simple choices / ideas/ policies without seeing the secondary impacts or costs to these choices. And how populist politicians from the right and left are able to take advantage and manipulate such less informed voters for their own gain.

But let's briefly respond to your points above. France had to nationalise the minority bit of EDF it didn't own because it selling power at a loss. Secondly due to years of underinvestment many French reactors are off line making for a very difficult winter for France where they can either import electricity from other countries where they cannot control the price or face blackouts.
The French price cap also does not cover gas prices or extend beyond the household sector.

I'm not sure what you mean by nationalising the "67%of energy produced here" . But if you mean power generation then the problem is that UK power prices are set by the dominant generation which is gas fired plants. These in turn have their power prices set by gas prices.

The UK produces around 50% of its gas and imports 30 to 35% from Norway and the rest from LNG. You could in theory nationalise the UK production in full Venezuelan style but you would become a pariah in energy markets and the companies you would nationalise from are also instrumental in the supply of LNG and Norwegian gas. Trying to nationalise Norwegian gas production or LNG production is of course impossible unless you start invading countries such as Iraq / Kuwait.

In short you put up a simple counter argument that doesn't stack up to either facts or the real world but I can see how naive people could fall for it or worse be easily manipulated.

Actually it goes beyond Brexit and can be applied to the Covid reaction, lockdown measures or the 2019 election or the reaction to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

I remember a Conservative politician once defending populist politics as saying it is simply democratic giving people what they want. The problem with this though is that as Winston Churchill once said " the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average other".

It's a fundamental misunderstanding of democracy in our system, as well.

We elect MPs. They are then bound by the ministerial code to act in the best interests of their constituents. That means all of their constituents, not just the ones who voted for them, or their local party members. The idea of party whips is an abomination and arguable directly conflicts with the ministerial code for this reason: they should not be influenced by anything other than what is in their constituents' interests.

It's also why MPs were absolutely correct to stand up to fight against a hard Brexit (those that did) because it was so blatantly obvious that this extreme kind of Brexit (leaving the single market etc) would not be in their constituents' interests and would lead us to where we are right now.

The Single Market was our idea!! Like the European Convention on Hunan Rights.

These are still good ideas we had in Britain. Now we pursue stupid, self defeating ideas. What happened?

Would love for someone to explain.

@AliensAteMyHomework
@LexMitior

"The Single Market was our idea!! Like the European Convention on Hunan Rights.

These are still good ideas we had in Britain. Now we pursue stupid, self defeating ideas. What happened?

Would love for someone to explain."

++++

Let me have a go at explaining. You see being a member of the EU as with everything had its upsides and downsides. Now it is my personal opinion that on balance the upsides outweighed the downsides but I get that in a democracy others may disagree.

However with the privilege of universal suffrage comes the responsibility of making informed decisions. Unfortunately this didn't happen as most voters wanted simple explanations, sound bites (let's take back control ") and dismissed counter arguments out of hand ( as project fear or "we've had enough of experts").

Once the bad choice / decision becomes apparent and the downside real then the individual has a choice between:

1. Denying the downsides exist and doubling down on the original wrong choice - aka stubbornness.
2. Accepting that the downsides do exist but that they had nothing to do with the poor choice - aka denial.
3. Accepting the downsides exist, that they made a poor choice but only because they were lied to - aka I'm a victim / blame shifting
4. Accepting there are downsides and that they made a poor choice aka mea culpa or honesty.

Indeed. I guess initially we had close to 100% of 1)

Now there are maybe 50% still on 1) and 25% each on 2) and 3).

More will probably shift to 3) as time goes on.

Boo fucking hoo for them.

A bit more 4) would go a long way.

It's a worldwide thing. So you can't just be angry at our government, you need to be angry with all of them - Putin especially! He's creating so many problems after covid.

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Jesus Christ. Read the thread?

Do you people literally just parrot this stuff without any understanding of the facts?

Actually thank you @Sniffypete for providing yet another good example of great sounding but ill thought through simplistic statements which fail to see the obstacles, secondary impacts or costs to these choices / decisions.

It really goes to show how populist politicians from the right and left are able to take advantage and manipulate such less informed voters for their own gain.

@AliensAteMyHomework

I refer back to my earlier posts in response to the OP being "so cross at the Government ".

The problem here isn't the Government. The Conservative Government or Brexit or £450 billion of Covid debt are simply the symptoms of the problem. The problem is actually the the large section of the population that either voted for it or supported it. Whilst refusing to consider downsides, warnings, counter arguments, secondary effects etc. And who then complain when these warnings become reality.

Yes I agree as I've said in my own posts.

However, ultimately the Government still decided to implement hugely damaging policies that it didn't have to implement. And they have got a fucking cheek expecting those of us who never supported any of this to pay for that. Then gaslighting us to say it's unreasonable for us to expect them to fix the problems that they deliberately created.

Much of the population is thick. The Government should know better.