Where are the threads going?

[AreYouVeryAnti]

One on Midazolam a few days ago (absolutely nothing new there) and then another one linking to a Daily Mail Article on the rare AZ side effects and broadly making fun of the comments as being not representative.

Have they been taken down?

Why?

It's this kind of thing that fuels conspiracy theories IMO. I first started sniffing around the entrance to rabbit holes when I saw that interviews of people with vaccine side effects were being removed from YouTube. Why? Why not let people see all the information and decide for themselves?

You know why.

I'm genuinely not sure I do, this sort of level of taking things down seems objectively ridiculous. I know it's John Campbell but even the "conspiracy theorists" don't seem to rate him. The Midazolam story is so old I can't see why anyone cares.

Two were deleted earlier today because they were started by a previously banned poster who was spreading lies about vaccinations.

Thank you and noted. Not sure it's an approach I'd take to inspire confidence but each to their own I guess.

Surprised you missed them given your special interest.

Me too! Lol😜

The midazolam story seems to be popping up everywhere again for the last few weeks so I don’t know that it is old.
Keeping untrue stories up in the interests of balance is likely to do more harm than good so that’s probably why it was removed.

I guess the question is who gets to decide what is untrue? And I'm not sure the Daily Mail article fitted into this category? I don't agree that keeping untrue stories up is likely to do more harm than good. I think taking things down potentially lends them more credibility than demonstrating why they're false. It's all a bit "Ministry of Truthy" IMO. But each to their own, and Mumsnet can of course set their own policy.

@AreYouVeryAnti

It’s not about what is true/not true. It’s about safe, rational advice.

Taking into account this is a parenting website, I don’t think Mumsnet should allow health misinformation (often with links to politically driven authors/articles).

And I’d say the same for any medical condition. Mumsnet should encourage NHS guidelines as this is the safest, most bias free source there is.

Encouraging alternative ‘theories’ that are often anecdotal or from less credible sources is far more likely to be harmful than global peer reviewed research/advice.

The pregnant, the vulnerable, the elderly come here. Do you want them to be swayed by anti vaxx/anti science nonsense, or listen to qualified medical professionals?

If you want to discuss anti science theories, why not find a forum not targeted at families?

I agree OP.

I see that the thread about the AstraZeneca withdrawing the Covid jab worldwide, has been taken down.
The company cites that 'newer shots led to the decline in demand for AZ, so it's no longer being manufactured or supplied'.

If people genuinely believe that's the actual reason, they'll believe anything at this point.

I agree OP, removing threads about these topics only fuels conspiracy theories. Seriously, in the absence of facts what DO people expect?

I think MN is irresponsible for trying to shut down legitimate discourse.

@Jumpingthruhoops

I don’t think it’s an issue to discuss the article - of a link with a rare side effect.

It’s saved far, far, far more lives that those that have had that rare side effect.

Many, many more die from smoking, alcohol - there is a greater chance of being struck by lightening.

Problem is, people start twisting the facts into something that supports their anti-science nonsense.
That’s why Mumsnet deletes - because twisting and spreading health misinformation is harmful - and I will report you if you try it.

So AZ is withdrawn worldwide for commercial reasons. Fine. It's a fairly credible argument that many (most) will be totally happy with. Again, taking the story down lends more credibility to any doubts about it than arguing with those doubts rationally. Why not leave it up, and explain the rareness of the side effects as @MintyVesta has so eloquently, then leave people to make up their own minds.

"The pregnant, the vulnerable, the elderly come here. Do you want them to be swayed by anti vaxx/anti science nonsense, or listen to qualified medical professionals?
If you want to discuss anti science theories, why not find a forum not targeted at families?"

Are we saying these categories are unable to determine what is anti vaxx / anti science nonsense for themselves? To determine between and weigh the relative merits of NHS advice and random posters on mumsnet? At best, it's a bit patronising and at worst, a bit 1984. Of course anyone can go to the NHS website, but they can ask on mumsnet for other opinions as they like. The fact that people are looking to mumsnet perhaps shows they're not entirely convinced by everything they're being told by all the usual sources. There are plenty (most) on mumsnet to reassure them. And if they can see everything that the "anti vaxxers" can throw at the argument aired and discredited surely they will be more reassured?

Except it's not 'one article' is it? It's a development that's been picked up by the world's media because it's huge.

Being able to discuss it would mean having to allow an open debate - however, you've made it quite clear that anything unpalatable (yet fact!) would be considered 'misinformation'.

So we're not 'allowed' to discuss it at all - then in the next breath you'll complain about conspiracy theories. Well, what do you want?
You can't expect to both silence debate AND the conspiracy theorists. Conspiracy theorists exist because people silence debate!
I can't work out for the life of me why seemingly educated people can't grasp that concept.

As an aside, your comments re those who've died are at best glib, at worst, bloody offensive.

And as for: 'If you try, I'll report you'... DFOD.

100% this! I've always been curious as to why the default setting has always been to immediately shut down, condemn, censor dismiss any alternative opinion/evidence on the topic.

As you say, let it be openly discussed. Then if people still think it's misinformation, they can call it out.
The way I see it is this: 'If it's 'nothing', why hide it'?

It's very telling how my post calling for open debate was immediately with the response 'Try... and I'll report you.' It's like a fucking cult!

What is ironic is that anyone questioning AZ (or the others) was silenced for being “anti-science” yet the science (whatever that means) let the UK down by missing the clear warning signals from the AZ jab and well after other countries did. The MHRA in my mind and the reporting system has lost all credibility and I believe it needs a full inquiry- people have died and been seriously injured.

Does this make me “anti science”? You bet it does because no, I don’t trust the “science”.

I think threads are deleted because MN can’t deal with the fallout. This will likely be deleted

its bizarre now. The mainstream media now allows almost all comments about the vaccines.

You are twisting the findings to support your anti vax theories. Every article about this emphasises how rare the side effect is. And you are not acknowledging the harm/deaths caused by Covid itself - and how much benefit the vaccine(s) provided. If we didn’t vaccinate at all and had let Covid run rip, there would be many, many thousands/millions more deaths, blood clots caused by Covid then the vaccine. Death by vaccine = very rare. Death prevented by Covid vaccine = 20million.

minty where was the benefit in giving younger and healthier people the AZ versus the risk? How was that quantified and why did it it take so long to pick it up. I would trust the science of this was acknowledged and discussed. At present it seems like many people are seeking compensation which they likely won’t get

what does “anti-vacc” mean please?

@BeethovenNinth It was about as achieving hybrid immunity as a global community. If you look at America alone there were 8000 deaths below the age of 30 by Covid 19.
Explain to me why Sweden were always very pro vaccine with about 90% population vaccinated and NOT saying ‘this was a mistake’? (nor any other European country with similarly high vaccine rate)

Well the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission (and they knew that - they were just hopeful) so that is nonsense in itself.

if I’m not allowed to say this then at least Ron Liddle, in the Sunday Times was, this week. And I quote “but the fact remains that the risk to some sectors of the population from the virus itself, especially women under the age of 60, who were the most susceptible to those possibly lethal side-effects, was negligible”

and at the end of his excellent column “ it all suggests to me that our belief in openness and democracy is a thin and fragile as the surface tension of blood.
No good ever comes from suppressing views, no matter how berserk you might find them to be. No good came from it in 2020 and it’s something we might bear in mind the next time the Chinese come up with a cute little virus”

”

Ps my kids are all fully vaccinated except from the Covid vaccine. As am I. Hell, I even had the whooping cough vaccine in pregnancy.

I chose not to follow the science as it didn’t quite add up for me on Covid. If I see doubts mocked and censorship then it raises alarm bells. How could the vaccine be tested for transmission thought I. Rightly it seems.

is this what I am - an “anti vaxxer”? Because in that case yes, and proudly so. My faith in science has been decimated since 2020 and it’s an utter tragedy as it means that people will now avoid other vaccines and for that, science and governments can only blame themselves

The point is - global hybrid immunity. And I note you avoided my 90% vaccinated in Sweden/pro vaccine question.

And your point about transmission just highlights your lack of understanding about how vaccines work.

Did Sweden get it wrong then @BeethovenNinth with their 90% vaccinated population?

Yup - I do misunderstand. I except people to be told the truth!

Sweden pulled the AZ vaccine long before the UK. The MHRa was asleep. Thank god really as I was dithering about getting the AZ and happened to see that Sweden had pulled it for my age group.

they couldn’t possibly test the vaccine against transmission. I’m no scientist but worked that out myself!

it makes total sense to me, in relation to normal vaccines, that we need a certain percent vaccinated for the disease no longer to spread. This is why it’s devastating that certain populations have lost trust and measles is on the rise. And whooping cough although that vaccine seems lesss effective now anyway.

I actually see the problem with measles vaccine etc now due to people who have spread ridiculous misinformation @BeethovenNinth. The people who have very little medical knowledge, watched a few YouTube videos and thought they were superior to the best medical minds globally. It’s the most arrogant, dense, cult-like stupidity I’ve seen, and has caused harm to others.

well can’t you see the damage that censorship of Covid vaccine has has done? Naturally people think - hang on - what else have I not been told? What other harms are there. Who is this dozy bunch on the MHRA?

i am furious about it. The whole bloody thing is a mess and it will take decades to regain trust and yet we STILL tell people they are stupid and anti-vaxxers. That phrase boils my piss.